[raptor5244]

It sounds like a lot of folks want a car that checks all the boxes, but you always have to make compromises when buying a sports car. If you want it to look cool with a chopped top look then you lose some visibility, you probably won't like the back seat or the size of the trunk and if you want all the best performance, great handling, mag ride, NPP, etc. you probably aren't going to like the price.

If you don't care about the look but you value back seats, trunk space, headroom, gas mileage then you buy a Honda Accord and the rest of the appliance based vehicles on the road that have no passion.

It is all about compromises, the Dodge Challenger has better visibility, big back seat and a big trunk but look at its sales. Many performance car buyers feel it is too big and too heavy to meet the sports car criteria. With the Corvette you lose the backseat as altogether and you have to roll yourself in and out of it and it costs a bit more as well.

So, that really leaves the Mustang, BMW M4 and some high end Audis. For me, when you compare the new Camaro with all its flaws to all the other 2 door cars in its class, it is a winner. I sacrifice some visibility and trunk space and get awesome performance, mag ride, incredible sound and all the latest tech.

The reason these cars don't sell like we want them to is because people value practicality over performance and looks nowadays. There are fewer passionate car people that will make the sacrifices you needs to make to drive these cars. That is why Honda sells like 400,000 Civics and Accords per year.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

It sounds like a lot of folks want a car that checks all the boxes, but you always have to make compromises when buying a sports car. If you want it to look cool with a chopped top look then you lose some visibility, you probably won't like the back seat or the size of the trunk and if you want all the best performance, great handling, mag ride, NPP, etc. you probably aren't going to like the price.

If you don't care about the look but you value back seats, trunk space, headroom, gas mileage then you buy a Honda Accord and the rest of the appliance based vehicles on the road that have no passion.

It is all about compromises, the Dodge Challenger has better visibility, big back seat and a big trunk but look at its sales. Many performance car buyers feel it is too big and too heavy to meet the sports car criteria. With the Corvette you lose the backseat as altogether and you have to roll yourself in and out of it and it costs a bit more as well.

So, that really leaves the Mustang, BMW M4 and some high end Audis. For me, when you compare the new Camaro with all its flaws to all the other 2 door cars in its class, it is a winner. I sacrifice some visibility and trunk space and get awesome performance, mag ride, incredible sound and all the latest tech.

The reason these cars don't sell like we want them to is because people value practicality over performance and looks nowadays. There are fewer passionate car people that will make the sacrifices you needs to make to drive these cars. That is why Honda sells like 400,000 Civics and Accords per year.

You are spot on IMO. Every choice results in a compromise.

That raises the question of what do we, the Camaro community, want from the gen7. They must be thinking about that now.

I'd like better visibility and a bigger truck opening but the driver/passenger area and egress is perfect. Most important is light, nimble, powerful and the interior tech and comfort. I want a back seat, "just in case" but otherwise doesn't matter. I don't want a cheap Camaro that goes backward on quality or performance.

A bigger (CTS sized) coupe with great visibility, truck and back seat would be as heavy as gen5.

FYI - bigger truck opening to me means that I can fit a large suitcase for my frequent overseas trips.

[Stoner]

Great information. Thanks for taking the time to put that together.

[crazydmc]

Originally Posted by Bongos2U

Before you leave this thread alone...Could you please elaborate on the above ? I hope you were being facetious.

sure I was being a smart ass.... my first comment in this thread was defending the Camaro from some lengthy discussion of how terrible the design is.... I basically said it is what it is,. if you don' like it then...fine.

I enjoy my Camaro much more than I thought I would. It is a blast to drive, etc, etc. but the impracticality of it is half the fun! people say that thing is friggin ridiculous.. and I say Yup

[Jeb114]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

It sounds like a lot of folks want a car that checks all the boxes, but you always have to make compromises when buying a sports car. If you want it to look cool with a chopped top look then you lose some visibility, you probably won't like the back seat or the size of the trunk and if you want all the best performance, great handling, mag ride, NPP, etc. you probably aren't going to like the price.

If you don't care about the look but you value back seats, trunk space, headroom, gas mileage then you buy a Honda Accord and the rest of the appliance based vehicles on the road that have no passion.

It is all about compromises, the Dodge Challenger has better visibility, big back seat and a big trunk but look at its sales. Many performance car buyers feel it is too big and too heavy to meet the sports car criteria. With the Corvette you lose the backseat as altogether and you have to roll yourself in and out of it and it costs a bit more as well.

So, that really leaves the Mustang, BMW M4 and some high end Audis. For me, when you compare the new Camaro with all its flaws to all the other 2 door cars in its class, it is a winner. I sacrifice some visibility and trunk space and get awesome performance, mag ride, incredible sound and all the latest tech.

The reason these cars don't sell like we want them to is because people value practicality over performance and looks nowadays. There are fewer passionate car people that will make the sacrifices you needs to make to drive these cars. That is why Honda sells like 400,000 Civics and Accords per year.

But what you leave out is with the sale of the Challenger, if it does not quite fit the family's needs they buy a Charger, Muscle with size they sell 9000 a month with those. When the family changes, back to the Challenger. Get the same performance with multiple sizes.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Jeb114

But what you leave out is with the sale of the Challenger, if it does not quite fit the family's needs they buy a Charger, Muscle with size they sell 9000 a month with those. When the family changes, back to the Challenger. Get the same performance with multiple sizes.

I'd be all for Chevy offering a Chevelle and Camaro.

[Number 3]

The biggest reason we have difficulty on the visibility is that for many it is ok.

Now why is it OK? I'm sure it's different for many. 1) A Ferrari doesn't have good visibility and the Camaro is better than that 2) when you get a sports car, you have to have some compromises 3) use your mirrors 4) you get used to it

In a sales thread, which is discussing why it isn't selling well compared to it's predecessor or it's #1 competitor, you have to realize that 1) people aren't comparing to Ferrari when the buy a 4 cylinder DD 2) it isn't a sports car to the person buying a 4 cylinder DD and 3) I won't consider or buy a product I have to learn to use or get used to.

To sell in volume or at least higher volumes, you have to appeal to a broader audience. The Camaro is an awesome car. Making many happy here it is now a near equivalent to the Corvette in some regards. But that is the sports car. A 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder Camaro, although still a great performing car, isn't viewed as a sports car it is viewed as a sporty car. And people buying sporty cars are less likely to accept the compromises. If you only want a great looking coupe and it's your only car, you probably want rear seat you can put someone in a little easier, you probably want a little bigger trunk, you probably want at least good visibility.

And I'll point out again, the data we don't have is GT/350/350R sales vs. SS/ZL1 sales. My bet would be that the SS outsells the GT or is at least more consistently close in the comparison. It's by far the better performance car. My guess is that the Mustang 4 and 6 cylinder sales are the difference maker. Might be wrong but it would be interesting to see that data.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Number 3

And I'll point out again, the data we don't have is GT/350/350R sales vs. SS/ZL1 sales. My bet would be that the SS outsells the GT or is at least more consistently close in the comparison. It's by far the better performance car. My guess is that the Mustang 4 and 6 cylinder sales are the difference maker. Might be wrong but it would be interesting to see that data.

I could see that. Like I've said before, people who are hardcore performance fans and Chevrolet fans are buying Camaros. It's a no-brainer in that regard.

But that 16 year old who just wants a cool car, Mom and Dad just went to the Ford dealer and picked up a Mustang V6. It's cheaper and that's all that matters to them.

[Bongos2U]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

I could see that. Like I've said before, people who are hardcore performance fans and Chevrolet fans are buying Camaros. It's a no-brainer in that regard.

But that 16 year old who just wants a cool car, Mom and Dad just went to the Ford dealer and picked up a Mustang V6. It's cheaper and that's all that matters to them.

It will be interesting to see how Ford prices the 2018 Mustang when the V6 will disappear.

[mr02Z/28]

I would have jumped on the 6th Gen band wagon and again I went looking but the 4 dealers I went to had overly priced and overly optioned Camaros, which I don't want, none of them were really interested in looking around, rebates are a joke because I don't qualify for most and dealers know that, they weren't budging on price on a 1SS I looked at a few places ... They dropped price down a very little bit but my City sales tax eats what they thought was a good discount .... I will just be happy with my paid off 2013 Camaro 2LT ...

[WhyUMad1LE]

Originally Posted by mr02Z/28

I would have jumped on the 6th Gen band wagon and again I went looking but the 4 dealers I went to had overly priced and overly optioned Camaros, which I don't want, none of them were really interested in looking around, rebates are a joke because I don't qualify for most and dealers know that, they weren't budging on price on a 1SS I looked at a few places ... They dropped price down a very little bit but my City sales tax eats what they thought was a good discount .... I will just be happy with my paid off 2013 Camaro 2LT ...

Try dealing with internet sales, they work off volume.

[mr02Z/28]

Tried it wasn't worth it, I still have to pay City sales tax here in Phila, PA and it's 8% I even tried dealing with Becky from Rodgers Chevrolet ......

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The biggest reason we have difficulty on the visibility is that for many it is ok.

Now why is it OK? I'm sure it's different for many. 1) A Ferrari doesn't have good visibility and the Camaro is better than that 2) when you get a sports car, you have to have some compromises 3) use your mirrors 4) you get used to it

In a sales thread, which is discussing why it isn't selling well compared to it's predecessor or it's #1 competitor, you have to realize that 1) people aren't comparing to Ferrari when the buy a 4 cylinder DD 2) it isn't a sports car to the person buying a 4 cylinder DD and 3) I won't consider or buy a product I have to learn to use or get used to.

To sell in volume or at least higher volumes, you have to appeal to a broader audience. The Camaro is an awesome car. Making many happy here it is now a near equivalent to the Corvette in some regards. But that is the sports car. A 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder Camaro, although still a great performing car, isn't viewed as a sports car it is viewed as a sporty car. And people buying sporty cars are less likely to accept the compromises. If you only want a great looking coupe and it's your only car, you probably want rear seat you can put someone in a little easier, you probably want a little bigger trunk, you probably want at least good visibility.

And I'll point out again, the data we don't have is GT/350/350R sales vs. SS/ZL1 sales. My bet would be that the SS outsells the GT or is at least more consistently close in the comparison. It's by far the better performance car. My guess is that the Mustang 4 and 6 cylinder sales are the difference maker. Might be wrong but it would be interesting to see that data.

Agreed. My passion for the Camaro requires the LT1, NPP exhaust and overall SS appeal. Those features enable me to overcome the impractical nature of the car. No disrespect to others but as you mentioned, I would not make those compromises for a "sporty" Camaro. If the car doesn't offer enough of the sports car driving experience then what is the point of making an impractical choice.

[VCSRT]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The biggest reason we have difficulty on the visibility is that for many it is ok.

Now why is it OK? I'm sure it's different for many. 1) A Ferrari doesn't have good visibility and the Camaro is better than that 2) when you get a sports car, you have to have some compromises 3) use your mirrors 4) you get used to it

In a sales thread, which is discussing why it isn't selling well compared to it's predecessor or it's #1 competitor, you have to realize that 1) people aren't comparing to Ferrari when the buy a 4 cylinder DD 2) it isn't a sports car to the person buying a 4 cylinder DD and 3) I won't consider or buy a product I have to learn to use or get used to.

To sell in volume or at least higher volumes, you have to appeal to a broader audience. The Camaro is an awesome car. Making many happy here it is now a near equivalent to the Corvette in some regards. But that is the sports car. A 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder Camaro, although still a great performing car, isn't viewed as a sports car it is viewed as a sporty car. And people buying sporty cars are less likely to accept the compromises. If you only want a great looking coupe and it's your only car, you probably want rear seat you can put someone in a little easier, you probably want a little bigger trunk, you probably want at least good visibility.

And I'll point out again, the data we don't have is GT/350/350R sales vs. SS/ZL1 sales. My bet would be that the SS outsells the GT or is at least more consistently close in the comparison. It's by far the better performance car. My guess is that the Mustang 4 and 6 cylinder sales are the difference maker. Might be wrong but it would be interesting to see that data.

For me the biggest knocks are the paint and visibility. I can let the visibility go, but as I have said in other threads, I was going to take delivery of a Jet Black Camaro, however they would not fix the apparent paint issues unless I signed the contract. As someone that has done paint work, I'm not falling for the banana in the tailpipe.

Don't get me wrong, I like the design, but when you look around with what else you can DD for the money, unless you've always wanted an SS Camaro there are better options. I will use the Fiata as an example, if Fiat, wasn't such a pile of garbage, the new Fiata would have fit the bill better for daily fun more so than the new 4Cyl Camaro, its trunk actually holds a golf bag, but its stuck with a dealer network that is vanishing, and no way in hell am I buying the other variant, ie Miata.