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Old 10-23-2017, 07:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by TLSTWIN View Post
No problem norm. We have tracked together b4. Feel free to discuss. I got thick skin
What I'm thinking of is purely technical and unlikely to arouse any feelings one way or the other. But first, I think I'm going to try to put together a spreadsheet in an attempt to quantify what's going on at least in terms of deflections and camber changes. Frequency and modeshape stuff will have to remain in more generalized terms.

If I find anything worth posting, it'll end up in a 'Suspension / Brakes / Chassis thread because it really won't be in the form of a question for Al. I haven't yet reviewed those convertible threads, so I'm not currently aware of what they might have answered for you.


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Old 10-23-2017, 10:12 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
What I'm thinking of is purely technical and unlikely to arouse any feelings one way or the other. But first, I think I'm going to try to put together a spreadsheet in an attempt to quantify what's going on at least in terms of deflections and camber changes. Frequency and modeshape stuff will have to remain in more generalized terms.

If I find anything worth posting, it'll end up in a 'Suspension / Brakes / Chassis thread because it really won't be in the form of a question for Al. I haven't yet reviewed those convertible threads, so I'm not currently aware of what they might have answered for you.


Norm
Make sure you post a link in this thread to it please.

Also, I don't think they answered any questions, but only asked similar questions. There is speculation, but no one answered them from the people that designed and engineered the car.
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Old 10-23-2017, 11:04 AM   #17
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Here's my opinion, FWIW

It's no secret that one of GM's main objectives was to make the chassis of the new Camaro stiffer, and they succeeded. I don't have the percentages, but all you need to do is drive a fifth gen and a sixth gen and you know the sixth gen is stiffer. That being said, the factory and the aftermarket offer strut tower braces. We look at it two ways. There is the performance side. While the car is definitely stiffer, you can always make it stifferer (lol). A strut tower brace (factory or aftermarket) is going to stiffen whatever it is connected to and the supporting system. The question becomes at what point is it noticeable and beneficial? In our opinion, unless you have race tire, race brakes, and intestinal fortitude to push the car to THE CAR'S limit (much different than the driver's limit) a strut tower can be beneficial. This "benefit" is decided by the driver, what he/she feels, and what they are looking for in how the car performance. That being said, this is a very small percentage of people who fit into this category. This brings us to the other side of the conversation.

Aesthetics. When you open the hood, you want to be greeted by whats as awesome on the outside. A strut tower brace is a great way to add an inexpensive, racy looking part under the hood. The installation is simple, and everyone sees it when you open the hood. Everyone wants to mod their car, even if its something simple. A strut tower bar is a great way to personalize your car.

If you're looking for a mod that makes a performance difference, a strut tower bar is not necessarily where I would start. There are a bunch of other parts that will make a more significant change.

Just my thoughts on the topic....

Pete
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Old 10-23-2017, 11:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR Suspension View Post
Here's my opinion, FWIW

It's no secret that one of GM's main objectives was to make the chassis of the new Camaro stiffer, and they succeeded. I don't have the percentages, but all you need to do is drive a fifth gen and a sixth gen and you know the sixth gen is stiffer. That being said, the factory and the aftermarket offer strut tower braces. We look at it two ways. There is the performance side. While the car is definitely stiffer, you can always make it stifferer (lol). A strut tower brace (factory or aftermarket) is going to stiffen whatever it is connected to and the supporting system. The question becomes at what point is it noticeable and beneficial? In our opinion, unless you have race tire, race brakes, and intestinal fortitude to push the car to THE CAR'S limit (much different than the driver's limit) a strut tower can be beneficial. This "benefit" is decided by the driver, what he/she feels, and what they are looking for in how the car performance. That being said, this is a very small percentage of people who fit into this category. This brings us to the other side of the conversation.

Aesthetics. When you open the hood, you want to be greeted by whats as awesome on the outside. A strut tower brace is a great way to add an inexpensive, racy looking part under the hood. The installation is simple, and everyone sees it when you open the hood. Everyone wants to mod their car, even if its something simple. A strut tower bar is a great way to personalize your car.

If you're looking for a mod that makes a performance difference, a strut tower bar is not necessarily where I would start. There are a bunch of other parts that will make a more significant change.

Just my thoughts on the topic....

Pete
I bet you're right. Even though you can always make something stronger, at some point you'll run into diminishing returns where even a big increase produces minimal benefit.
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR Suspension View Post
Here's my opinion, FWIW

It's no secret that one of GM's main objectives was to make the chassis of the new Camaro stiffer, and they succeeded. I don't have the percentages, but all you need to do is drive a fifth gen and a sixth gen and you know the sixth gen is stiffer. That being said, the factory and the aftermarket offer strut tower braces. We look at it two ways. There is the performance side. While the car is definitely stiffer, you can always make it stifferer (lol). A strut tower brace (factory or aftermarket) is going to stiffen whatever it is connected to and the supporting system. The question becomes at what point is it noticeable and beneficial? In our opinion, unless you have race tire, race brakes, and intestinal fortitude to push the car to THE CAR'S limit (much different than the driver's limit) a strut tower can be beneficial. This "benefit" is decided by the driver, what he/she feels, and what they are looking for in how the car performance. That being said, this is a very small percentage of people who fit into this category. This brings us to the other side of the conversation.

Aesthetics. When you open the hood, you want to be greeted by whats as awesome on the outside. A strut tower brace is a great way to add an inexpensive, racy looking part under the hood. The installation is simple, and everyone sees it when you open the hood. Everyone wants to mod their car, even if its something simple. A strut tower bar is a great way to personalize your car.

If you're looking for a mod that makes a performance difference, a strut tower bar is not necessarily where I would start. There are a bunch of other parts that will make a more significant change.

Just my thoughts on the topic....

Pete
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
I bet you're right. Even though you can always make something stronger, at some point you'll run into diminishing returns where even a big increase produces minimal benefit.
All good points that likely apply to the coupe. The convertible, though, I would think "needs" or must have the brace for even normal driving. Without it might lead to noticeable lack of stiffness under normal driving, and would definitely be required for any tracking.

I think the OP has asked two things...."needed" or "helpful"....What would happen to a convertible without a brace?....

Is hardtop bracing necessarily better than strut tower?....Or is strut tower just a Band-Aid for the convertibles?
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:15 PM   #20
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Here's the race GT4-R...It has the modified LT-1, but has the ZL1/LT4 tower braces...It is a coupe, the regular convertible SS tower brace would probably fit, but they have these braces on their race-coupe...just fyi...

Needed?...Helpful?....Not needed?...I would say in this case, needed/helpful....

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Old 10-23-2017, 03:42 PM   #21
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Here's the race GT4-R...It has the modified LT-1, but has the ZL1/LT4 tower braces...It is a coupe, the regular convertible SS tower brace would probably fit, but they have these braces on their race-coupe...just fyi...

Needed?...Helpful?....Not needed?...I would say in this case, needed/helpful....

Attachment 903419
ALL 6th gen Camaros have the firewall to strut tower braces.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:41 PM   #22
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This begs the question why GM didn't engineer one for the ZL1 convertible yet they feel its needed for the less powerful SS convertible???
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:37 PM   #23
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Interesting debate... subscribed.
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:11 AM   #24
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One of the things I'd like to know concerns structural modeshapes that a brace between the two strut towers might be suppressing. I wouldn't expect any specific frequency information be disclosed, just confirmation that some frequencies/modeshapes were affected, and whether they might amount to something subliminally noticeable by a driver.


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Old 10-30-2017, 03:39 PM   #25
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One of the things I'd like to know concerns structural modeshapes that a brace between the two strut towers might be suppressing. I wouldn't expect any specific frequency information be disclosed, just confirmation that some frequencies/modeshapes were affected, and whether they might amount to something subliminally noticeable by a driver.


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Yep even long term flexing/fatigue of the strut towers
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Old 10-30-2017, 09:18 PM   #26
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It would be nice to know if there is any additional stiffening of the ZL1 convertible being how it lacks a strut tower brace that the regular SS convertible has.
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:56 AM   #27
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Old 11-03-2017, 11:29 AM   #28
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Like I said before. Why no strut tower brace on the ZL1???
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