[90503]

I think there is one glaring difference with EVs that has yet to be realized. Trying to compare EVs to ICE with the argument that they are just two different ways to power the same vehicle misses a big perception. It's true that small, non-powerful, compact ICE cars have not been recieved well and have not sold as well as their larger ICE cousins IMO would not be the same case with EVs.

Souless point A to B commuter vehicles would be an accepted and expected niche for EVs that ICE could not make palatable to consumers.

Gas savings, short trips, boring commutes, inexpensive MSRPs, zero maintenance, zero emissions, etc. are what EVs were expected to be in order to recieve wide acceptance.

The unfulfilled promise of a transition to EVs that would be "better" than ICE is missing this major opportunity. EVs have been coming out year after year more expensive and futily trying to compare themselves to ICE vehicles.

EVs can't do heavy lifting. Can't do long distances without smoke and mirror marketing, can't reproduce the sound, feel and pride of ownership of an ICE vehicle. They shouldn't try. Build and sell what EVs should be. Very inexpensive to buy and maintain, boring to drive but economical as hell. Trying to market 50-100K EVs as an alternative to ICE isn't cutting it.

EVs have squandered their chance to become popular. Year after year we hear that low-cost models are coming. But they never have and likely never will be offered. Not while they can milk all they can from what they build now.

ICE would have entry level models, with an eye on moving up. EVs have skipped this process to their detriment.

I can get an EV thrill at an indoor cart track or even with a golf cart. If I'm going to drive one on the street, it won't be an over-priced, high priced soon to be out-dated (by the maker's own admission) EV that I don't need.

I would buy one that is priced right just to get from point A to point B around town. The 10-20K BYDs will sell like hot-cakes.

My $.02 for now...lol

[Capricio]

90503, once again, spot on. The OEMs got comfortable with COVID level supply shortages and getting MSRP+ with no incentives. The "top down" model offering strategy still hasn't trickled down to the entry level, at least not in the USA, and I still have no hope for our $15k BYD. OEMs are only concerned with keeping them off our shores, not competing with them. Conditions have changed dramatically. Time will tell how long they can rely on regulatory policy to drive the market in their desired direction.

[Martinjlm]

The first “wave” of EVs tried to follow the pattern that 90503 has outlined. Who remembers

• Think
• Chevrolet Spark EV
• Ford Focus EV
• Toyota RAV4 EV
• Hyundai IONIQ EV (before they started numbering them)
• Mitsubishi iMiEV

I would imagine that most don’t and that even more can say “I think I’ve heard of some of them but I’ve never seen one.” That’s because they were all barebones A to B commuters with low range and either oversized price tags or special lease only deals.

Tesla was the first to take a different approach to entering the market. Start at the top and work your way down the price ladder. That has been so successful that every new EV company and most of the legacy automakers are now following that exact model. It’s easier to “hide” the cost of the tech in an $80,000 car than in a $20,000 car.

The idea that EVs can’t make long tips continues to be debunked everyday. Tesla owners continue to demonstrate that they can travel freely across the country using the Tesla Supercharger network. As of January there were 2,128 Supercharger stations located mainly along interstates and major highways. Just in the 5 short months that we’ve owned our Model Y it is obvious to me that the concentration of Superchargers, at least in the areas I tend to travel, is more than sufficient. As I drive highway routes I can touch my touch screen and get real time data on where Superchargers are located, how many bays are available based on the time I would arrive, at what the power rating and $/kWh charge would be. It actually provides multiple options for where to charge and then navigate directly to them with a touch of the screen. Okay, so that’s Tesla…what about the others? Well, most of the others (Ford, GM, Stellantis, Rivian, Hyundai-Kia, more than I can list) have now signed agreements with Tesla allowing them to use the same network. There are also other networks that are open to everybody (including Tesla) but have some operational problems. 100% fix? Not yet, but arguably one that is already workable for most EV drivers and one that continues to improve on an almost daily basis.

I would tend to disagree that EVs have squandered their opportunity to be popular. They are in fact quite popular right now and continuing to gain sales volume. The rate of growth of sales volume has slowed, but is still in fact growing except for the month of March. Sales topped 1 million units in the US in 2023 and the Tesla Model Y finished 2023 as the best selling vehicle in the world and 5th best selling vehicle in the US. The Model 3 was in the top 10 in the world, #12 in US. Model Y is a 4 year old design. Model 3 is a 7 year old design, and they’re not exactly beauty queens, and yet they sell.

The price ladder will work itself out. As 90503 has pointed out and I have explained, the EV transition has flipped the cadence of model introductions on its ear. Instead of a bottom up (Camaro LT/SS —> SS1LE/ZL1 —> ZL1 1LE) cadence, the new norm is to introduce the highest cost variants first so that the “willing to pay whatever to be first” buyers can willingly pay more than the vehicle is worth. Then gradually fill out the portfolio with lower priced versions. Hummer started with a $111k all in 1,000 hp monster with Crabwalk. Cybertruck launched with a $120k 1,000 hp CyberBeast with 4 wheel steer. Both will take about two years to walk down to availability of their base configurations priced about 45% lower than the introductory top levels that grab all the magazine covers and YouTube reviews. It’s a solid approach.

Tesla has already taken advantage of that pricing model and is already able to price Model 3 and Model Y competitively with ICE competitors. When examined feature for feature, option for option, the Model Y we bought was priced $30 LESS than a comparably equipped Chevrolet Blazer RS (ICE). I did not include a GM discount or IRA incentive in the pricing of either in order to keep it apples-to-apples. We’re probably about 2 - 3 years from Hyundai-Kia, GM, and Ford being able to also field EVs that are price competitive with ICE. I list them in the order in which they are likely to achieve. GM could jump the line if they are able to introduce a next gen Bolt EV that is closer to Trax in size and content. In all cases, it will be comparing highly equipped versions of each vehicle. This is because a number of the features and functions in EVs are included in the base product because they are enabled by the electric functionality of the vehicles whereas the ICE vehicles tend to have more electro-mechanical feature inclusion, adding cost for each option. In my Model Y / Blazer RS comparison, most of the features that were extra cost in the Blazer RS were included in the base cost of the Model Y.

Then there is the idea of being out-dated. I know the concept of Over-the-Air update OTA) tends to be a sore spot in this entire forum, not just this thread. But it is also panning out to be a way for EV manufacturers, and some legacy ICE manufacturers, to keep their cars up to date. Again, we bought the Model Y in November. Now in April it has more functionality than it did when we bought it. And at no additional charge. Even more interesting, 2018 Model 3s and 2020 Model Ys received the same functional OTA updates that we did, making those cars much more up to date than a similar 2018 or 2020 ICE bought at the same time. Again, this is NOT simply a function of EVs. Legacy automakers are starting to do the same thing, but are in some cases limited by the hardware available or not available on the vehicles being updated. Since so much of the feature content of Model 3 and Model Y is centered in the electric systems and camera based systems, they are able to add more functionality easier.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I've driven a Tesla. 2024 Model Y Long Range. It had torque and drove pretty well. But at full tilt it basically accelerated similarly to my Supra from 40-70 mph or so (I think the Supra would take it at higher speeds). People get enamored by the instant torque and think they accelerate like a supercar. My friend actually said he can finally hang with my ZL1 now (in good air at 2,700' elevation my ZL1 is a high 7 sec 60-130 car). The Y LR had decent acceleration but not mind blowing. I got out of it disliking it more than before I drove it. The interior is so minimalist it's uninteresting and utterly boring. The proportions of the exterior don't look right from pretty much any angle with the front in view (same goes for the Model 3 and X). The "tech" touted (updates, etc.) are mostly basically items that ICE cars could have done as well, minus any power updates due to better battery heat mgmt.

I've also ridden in numerous Model 3s and even a Model S Plaid, and Mach-e. Doesn't change my mind that all they have is instant torque. The Plaid is very quick, of course, but still under-braked and other than hp, uninteresting to me. At least the Model S is a good-looking car.

I'm not completely anti EV, they have their place I guess, I'm anti traditional ICE manufacturers swapping entirely to EVs and stopping developing interesting ICEs (mainly) for sports cars.

Your point is well positioned and well understood. If I were describing my position as you have described yours in the bold print it would be something like…

I’m not 100% for EV but I do recognize that for 80-90% of the way consumers use their cars today, an EV does most of the job as well or better. But there is still a place for ICE based product (with or without hybridization) and the automakers that are focused on 100% transition to EV are running the risk of leaving too much on the table.

As far as sports cars go, a few exceptions aside, traditional OEMs had begun winding down their portfolios of sports cars before the strong lean into EV. They simply do not make money at the rapidly dwindling volumes. Mustang, Corvette, anything Porsche, and maybe Miata, sure. Everything else priced under $100k? Nope. Supra only exists because it shares cost with Z4. BRZ & GR86 barely hang on sharing cost at their combined volume. The decline of sports car model availability and the increase in EV models and volume are parallel coincidences, not cause and effect. In some cases, OEMs may be exiting sportier cars sooner than they originally planned in order to grab the funds for EV development, but that affects 1 or 2 years of availability at best (Camaro). 7th Gen was a goner before Reuss declared 100% EV. Actually, if you were to look at my posting activity on Mustang6 you could tell when 7th Gen died.

Idaho2018GTPremium may remember some of the skirmishes I got involved in over there involving whether Camaro was going to die because of declining sales. I kept arguing that there was a separate team hard at work on 7th Gen from the day 6th Gen hit the street. One day a bit after my retirement I went up to the Tech Center to chum around with some of my former colleagues. A well placed member on the Camaro Team pulled me aside and told me that 7th Gen was dead and if we were lucky we might see an extension of 6th Gen. That was the point at which I walked away from the “Ha-ha! Camaro’s getting canceled again” thread. Long before Reuss said 100% EV, which was actually a bit of a shock to me.

[90503]

All good points. I don't have all the details, but in Tesla's case I recall basically they put themselves on the map by starting with a 25K or so price for the model 3 (?) and took an enormous amount of deposits in their first years of existence. It took years and years to finally make good. This was in the mid 20 teens I think. Anyhow, everyone was predicting Tesla would go bust over building these low-cost EVs.

My point is, Tesla did not start how with Hi-end, hi-price and wait for the ability to make a low cost model. It is what they started with.

Sure, now they have beau-coup hi price models. But that is not how they got started. It was with something affordable.

[Evergreen6]

IMO the only truly interesting Tesla was the original Roadster, based on the ICE Lotus Elan. It was mostly interesting because it was a Lotus designed for Lotus things, and Tesla supplied the power.

The rest of Tesla's lineup bores me from a design and enthusiast perspective. Several of them are quick, some are blindingly fast. The Model 3 for me is like a Toyota Corolla. The X is a blob, sedans are just sedans, in the same way it was disappointing Porsche now makes blobs and SUV's. The Cybertruck is an interesting automotive conversation piece, and nothing I'd ever want to own for myself. When shopping for an EV, not only were Teslas not very interesting to us, there's also the problem that its CEO is a drug-addicted wanna-be fascist. Not even no thanks. Just, no.

And that led us to today, where there are many good EV choices in the market besides Tesla, and their exclusive charging network is not so exclusive. But most of the other EV choices are still expensive (new), and I can't think of anything I particularly want from an enthusiast perspective that's on the market right now and costs between 30-50k.

This is also the state of the automotive industry. I don't get excited about the vast majority of cars on the road today ICV or BEV, and definitely not Hybrid. But EV's do add the wow factor of electric performance beyond what a Toyota Highlander or Ford Explorer might do. A Mach E GT would be closer, but it's also a blob/SUV. Kind of like what a Saleen Ford Explorer was back in the day. Stupid. But regarded as fast.

I am interested in the new Charger/Challenger BEV (and the ICE versions too) but Stella needs to find its way. They're producing a lot of junk these days, and so goes being owned by a multi-national company on a mission to establish dominance through cutting cost.

I get the enthusiast aspect. I have plenty of favorite old ICV's. Not one but two 6-speed manual Camaros adorn my shop, and my other love it the Jeep Wrangler and I've had plenty of those. And we keep a leased BEV luxury-barge around because, well, we're "old" and we need a car "thing" to do car things. Our BMW iX is really good at that, and it's also not slow. When you're 40+, you start to appreciate these kinds of things.

My money is still on GM to produce something exciting. If they torture the Camaro into some overweight blob, I guess the trucks are all that are left for me. I'm not a Corvette guy as much as I appreciate the C8...watched too many of my friends buy Corvettes over the years and get old. I won't make that mistake.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

All good points. I don't have all the details, but in Tesla's case I recall basically they put themselves on the map by starting with a 25K or so price for the model 3 (?) and took an enormous amount of deposits in their first years of existence. It took years and years to finally make good. This was in the mid 20 teens I think. Anyhow, everyone was predicting Tesla would go bust over building these low-cost EVs.

My point is, Tesla did not start how with Hi-end, hi-price and wait for the ability to make a low cost model. It is what they started with.

Sure, now they have beau-coup hi price models. But that is not how they got started. It was with something affordable.

Sorry, not at all true. They started with a very high priced Lotus bodied Tesla Roadster in 2008. It had a starting price of $80,000. Later model years sold at around $120k. It ended in 2012.

Then they launched their volume(?) product line with the Model S, based on a Jaguar sedan. Prices ranged from $61,000 for a 45kWh model to $101,000 for the highest performance model. Model S took serious market share away from Mercedes S-Class (the naming similarly is NOT a coincidence).

They followed that in 2015 with a Model X luxury utility with gimmicky Falcon doors. This is where they really doubled down on their “launch from the top” strategy. The first ones sold were the $132,000 P90D trims. For an extra $10k you could get the Founders Edition. All the while that those products were in the market outselling Mercedes and BMW products, Elon talked about his $25,000 EV. The Model 3 was supposed to be that but came to market 2 years late and more than $10k higher than Elon’s target. Then the Model Y came to market in 2020.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Sorry, not at all true. They started with a very high priced Lotus bodied Tesla Roadster in 2008. It had a starting price of $80,000. Later model years sold at around $120k. It ended in 2012.

Then they launched their volume(?) product line with the Model S, based on a Jaguar sedan. Prices ranged from $61,000 for a 45kWh model to $101,000 for the highest performance model. Model S took serious market share away from Mercedes S-Class (the naming similarly is NOT a coincidence).

They followed that in 2015 with a Model X luxury utility with gimmicky Falcon doors. This is where they really doubled down on their “launch from the top” strategy. The first ones sold were the $132,000 P90D trims. For an extra $10k you could get the Founders Edition. All the while that those products were in the market outselling Mercedes and BMW products, Elon talked about his $25,000 EV. The Model 3 was supposed to be that but came to market 2 years late and more than $10k higher than Elon’s target. Then the Model Y came to market in 2020.

Only the 25K model seemed to make the headlines. I'm sure you're right, but the popularity of a low cost EV, or the promise of one, seemed to far outpace any of the others, and to this day remains a unicorn.

GM definitely is following this model, then. Low cost Bolt....gone. But a new promise of who knows when and at what cost....Equinox a distant memory....

So yeah, gm and others may actually be taking the false promise of a low cost ev to another level...longer wait and higher priced as demonstrated by Tesla in the past.

No wonder BYD is such a threat. They actually have manufactured the low cost EV that was a dangling carrot used by all the others.

[Evergreen6]

EV Equinox should arrive later this year, right?

As far as I know, the Bolt ended so that factory could be repurposed for the new EV's like the Equinox.

The Bolt was a good little car, but with only a max 50kW charge rate, it's somewhat antiquated as far as newer EV's are concerned. 2017 was quite a while ago.

Even the Saudis are investing in EV production and lithium mining. This is another reason we know EV's aren't going away anytime soon.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

Only the 25K model seemed to make the headlines. I'm sure you're right, but the popularity of a low cost EV, or the promise of one, seemed to far outpace any of the others, and to this day remains a unicorn.

GM definitely is following this model, then. Low cost Bolt....gone. But a new promise of who knows when and at what cost....Equinox a distant memory....

So yeah, gm and others may actually be taking the false promise of a low cost ev to another level...longer wait and higher priced as demonstrated by Tesla in the past.

No wonder BYD is such a threat. They actually have manufactured the low cost EV that was a dangling carrot used by all the others.

I think GM would’ve liked to have kept the bolt, especially the EUV around longer. They truly were $25k EVs. But because they are not on Ultiu platform or using Ultium batteries, GM had set a sunset date on them with the intent of retooling the Orion Twp plant to build more Silverado EV and Sierra EV. Now that they are dialing back volume expectations for those EV trucks, they’ve delayed re-launching hat plant.

Equinox EV may actually be in launch mode a I type this, though not available in dealers yet. It will launch with a high $30s / lo 40s mid-range model. About a year, year and a half later the “base” model will be available at $34,995. When Bolt / Bolt EUV come back, they will be priced below Equinox EV.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

EV Equinox should arrive later this year, right?

As far as I know, the Bolt ended so that factory could be repurposed for the new EV's like the Equinox.

The Bolt was a good little car, but with only a max 50kW charge rate, it's somewhat antiquated as far as newer EV's are concerned. 2017 was quite a while ago.

Even the Saudis are investing in EV production and lithium mining. This is another reason we know EV's aren't going away anytime soon.

Orion Twp willl build Silverado EV and/or Sierra EV unless GM shifts plans and puts the next gen Bolt / EUV there. Equinox EV is built in Ramos Arizspe, Mexico alongside the ICE Equinox and the ICE and BEV versions of Blazer.

Lucid is backed by Saudi capital.

You’re absolutely right about the Bolt max DCFC charge rate. Corrected in all following GM EVs, including whenever the next gen Bolt / EUV arrive. Ultium is currently capable at 350 kw ad 800V. Not to say Bolt will get that level of functionality. Those kinda numbers are reserved for higher $$ product, but it will sure as shite be better than 50kW. Probably in the 150kW / 400V range.