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Old 04-20-2013, 04:55 PM   #645
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http://www.autoweek.com/article/2012...iews/120939996 here is a link to a review of the 2013 turbo 4 Malibu.

I repeat, I'm not for only V8-- I'm just pro V6 as the entry level.
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Old 04-21-2013, 05:50 PM   #646
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I haven't read through this whole thread.. but thought I would add this

Here is my 2010 V6 Camaro. RED = STOCK, BLUE = Bunch of bolt-ons and tune:




Here i my Focus ST 2.0 4 cylinder EcoBoost. The only mods are an axle-back, resonator swap and a tune! BTW, it definitely doesn't need to be "high reving"



Now, if my Focus wasn't WRONG WHEEL DRIVE!
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:41 PM   #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrming View Post
I haven't read through this whole thread.. but thought I would add this

Here is my 2010 V6 Camaro. RED = STOCK, BLUE = Bunch of bolt-ons and tune:




Here i my Focus ST 2.0 4 cylinder EcoBoost. The only mods are an axle-back, resonator swap and a tune! BTW, it definitely doesn't need to be "high reving"



Now, if my Focus wasn't WRONG WHEEL DRIVE!
Anything has great potential if significantly modded. And 340 lb-ft at the wheels from a Focus ST is very significantly modded. That's more than a stock 3.5L V6 EcoBoost Flex or SHO. In percentage terms, that would be equivalent to modding an LS3 to ~625 tq at the flywheel.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:48 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by fielderLS3 View Post
Anything has great potential if significantly modded. And 340 lb-ft at the wheels from a Focus ST is very significantly modded. That's more than a stock 3.5L V6 EcoBoost Flex or SHO.
My mods on the ST are:

Cobb 93 octane tune
MRT axle back
Green replacement air filter

That's it!!! Not really significant at all! We've. Got our Flex cranked up to about 500 HP with just a tune and some methanol.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:09 PM   #649
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Mid 70's and 80's Camaros (all American muscle at the time was fairly anemic due to the very same CAFE problems we are having now. And of course I know that those early slow catalytic converter having 145 HP sporting V8s don't compare to 4 bangers now.)

They also don't compare to DI V6s. I'm talking about now. No mid 70's engines compare to now, Priuses can beat some of them on a drag strip. It will be the same with us 50 years from now. I am not interested in or advocating comparing 4 bangers to engines almost 50 years ago, nor am I saying that only V8s are Camaros. It's just easier to discount me if you believe that.

I owned a V6 prior to the SS and I am comparing V6's to 4 bangers. Modern DI V6's tuned for performance.

What I said earlier is I think the Turbo 4 is NOT cheaper nor better mpg cost, and about the same power as a good NA DI V6.

So tell me about that, not the condescending part about whether I think a HiPo turbo 4 in a light weight modern car with modern rubber and suspension could outrun an old 80's Iroc Camaro.

As for what I believe is a grocery getter-- the I4 in the Impala and Malibu come to mind... Be careful what you wish for.
Sorry if you thought anything I posted was condescending. Just trying to continue what I thought was a good converstation.

A turbo 4 will get better FE. Not a huge amount better, but if you look at the ATS you'll see I think 28 mpg for the V6 and 30 mpg for the 2.0 T.

My only point in the discussion is everyone seems level set on today. We had pretty crappy "muscle" cars in the past. In the future our definition may change again. And in the further future, that "muscle" may not even be generated by petroleum.

Again, appologies if you think I was putting you down. Not my intent at all.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:29 PM   #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrming View Post
My mods on the ST are:

Cobb 93 octane tune
MRT axle back
Green replacement air filter

That's it!!! Not really significant at all! We've. Got our Flex cranked up to about 500 HP with just a tune and some methanol.
I find it hard to believe you got a nearly 50% torque gain over stock with just minor bolt-ons and advanced timing. You must have upped the boost several psi as part of the tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
A turbo 4 will get better FE. Not a huge amount better, but if you look at the ATS you'll see I think 28 mpg for the V6 and 30 mpg for the 2.0 T.
I don't think a turbo-4 will get any better fuel economy than a NA V6 at all, not as long as you compare engines of similar power. You can't compare power vs efficiency between the ATS V6 and turbo-4. The V6 makes 50 more horsepower.

Shrink the V6 in displacement until it was down to 270hp, or grow/tune the turbo-4 up to 320hp, and I think their efficiencies would be identical. Only differences would be the cost, complexity, and long term expensive repair potential.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:50 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by fielderLS3 View Post
I find it hard to believe you got a nearly 50% torque gain over stock with just minor bolt-ons and advanced timing. You must have upped the boost several psi as part of the tune.



I don't think a turbo-4 will get any better fuel economy than a NA V6 at all, not as long as you compare engines of similar power. You can't compare power vs efficiency between the ATS V6 and turbo-4. The V6 makes 50 more horsepower.

Shrink the V6 in displacement until it was down to 270hp, or grow/tune the turbo-4 up to 320hp, and I think their efficiencies would be identical. Only differences would be the cost, complexity, and long term expensive repair potential.
GM had a 3.0 L V6 that made the HP of the 2.0T in the Equinox/Terrain/CTS. None got significantly better FE than the 3.6 which is why it's gone.

But generally a smaller displacement turbo making equal HP will get better FE. Just look at the 1.4T in the Cruze or Sonic vs the base 1.8L NA. The Turbo is the FE choice. Both the 1.8 and 1.4T make the same HP.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:01 PM   #652
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GM had a 3.0 L V6 that made the HP of the 2.0T in the Equinox/Terrain/CTS. None got significantly better FE than the 3.6 which is why it's gone.

But generally a smaller displacement turbo making equal HP will get better FE. Just look at the 1.4T in the Cruze or Sonic vs the base 1.8L NA. The Turbo is the FE choice. Both the 1.8 and 1.4T make the same HP.
Maybe on the EPA test, but not in the real world. Most real world results/tests suggest that downsized and turbo engines fall short of their EPA targets (much the way hybrids do). CR does real world fuel economy loops, and they did a 1.4T Cruze and 1.8 Cruze. Their real world result between the two engines was identical.

Ultimately, I believe that the EPA methodology (i.e. the assumptions/simulations build into their dyno runs) underestimates the efficiency of larger displacement engines, and overestimates smaller ones. This is just an observation from experience. I've driven a lot of different cars over the years. The V8 powered cars I've driven surpassed their EPA ratings much easier and by larger margins (one of them is EPA rated at 23, and consistently gets 30, a 30% difference to the plus side) than the 4-cyl cars I've driven.
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:34 AM   #653
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This is my Jeff Goldblum impersonation from Independence Day. "Wellllll..."a four cylinder is good for business. If it helps them with CAFE, export, whatever. Get the production numbers up. Yes, throw a turbo or two on it if you want. Let me say this, 4 cyl Camaros might help insure there would still be 8cyl Camaros. I mean the only way to phrase it is why would anyone want a 6cyl? Well they do, and they enjoy them, and they still have more hp than the 4th gen Z28's. So I have no issue with a full spread of engine options.

I'll preface my next part with yes some people would drag race a 4cyl Camaro, but where as they may not be great for drag racing, the next lighter generation with an even lighter 4cyl turbo engine might make for a good track or autocross car.

Whatever Chevy has to do to make sure the Camaro doesn't go away again is fine by me. I'm more concerned with styling and weight. No matter what, at least for the time being, whatever is offered beside the V8's there will still be V8's, and there will also be after market parts to give that engine 600 hp if that's what someone wants, which I do.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:03 PM   #654
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I associate American muscle as having minimum 8 cylinders and above. If I wanted a 4 banger, I would get a Evo or STI.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:36 PM   #655
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I associate American muscle as having minimum 8 cylinders and above. If I wanted a 4 banger, I would get a Evo or STI.
This! I recall an article of one of the camaro engineers stating soemthing to the effect "over his dead body" that a camaro would have a 4 cyl. We'll see what happens here, but I think they'll stop camaro production before introducing a 4 cyl in them.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:00 PM   #656
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This! I recall an article of one of the camaro engineers stating soemthing to the effect "over his dead body" that a camaro would have a 4 cyl. We'll see what happens here, but I think they'll stop camaro production before introducing a 4 cyl in them.
I wouldn't count on that.

It is basically all but confirmed the Mustang is getting one.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:07 PM   #657
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This! I recall an article of one of the camaro engineers stating soemthing to the effect "over his dead body" that a camaro would have a 4 cyl. We'll see what happens here, but I think they'll stop camaro production before introducing a 4 cyl in them.
...Probably true if the case were that there would be no V-8...My guess is he meant no Camaros would have a 4-cyl as the only available engine...
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:35 PM   #658
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...Probably true if the case were that there would be no V-8...My guess is he meant no Camaros would have a 4-cyl as the only available engine...
Maybe so... its quite possible they introduce it, but the camaro has til about 2020 and itll be put to death again. No redesign of 6th gen and def no 7th gen camaro. But then again? Will GM ride this pony til it dies? "it's better to burn out than to fade away" is what I see happening. GM rode it til its death in 2002. I dont see them wanting to do that again. I wish theyd have stopped with the 5th gen, then bring back the Chevelle SS.
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