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Old 03-11-2013, 05:57 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
What's more frustrating is that a primary cost driver on new cars is the advanced engineering it takes to design something with today's fuel economy standards. Cars keep getting more expensive, and a large part of that is the cost of these new engines with 30+ mpg. I can only imagine what the LS3 would cost if GM didn't have to add all of the expensive emissions equipment necessary to fulfill legal requirements. I wish we could go back to fuel economy being a voluntary thing everyone uses to compete rather than a mandatory thing everybody does just to keep up.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:04 PM   #506
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I think I was the one who mentioned the Impala. The V6 hasn't been dropped completely from the '14 Impala, but it's no longer standard. The standard engine is the 195-hp 2.5L non-turbo four-cylinder. Any way you slice it, that's a pretty major downgrade from the tried-and-true 3.6 DI V6 that's standard in the '13 Impala... and the '14 Impala is slated to costs thousands more.

But, again, what GM has done with the Impala may or may not to be relevant to what will happen to the Camaro. Maybe GM thinks Impala buyers are more comfort-oriented, i.e., they want a big, cushy car but are not so concerned with having a hot engine, so they won't notice or care that the new engine is a slug. I do know, though, that a typical Camaro buyer WILL notice.
I agree with you basically except people who want a Sedan with some power. Both the Malibu and the Impala are slugs. So you buy a Charger SRT8. If they do to the Camaro what they've done to Impalas-- ie Eco 4 engines and comfy interior in order to sell to the grocery getter crowd I think they will shoot themselves in the foot.

This car will disappear again. People looking for sensible economy grocery getters will by Malibus and Focuses. Once you change people's view of the car from performance bad assery to economy slug suckery it's hard to change back.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:05 PM   #507
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Small displacement turbocharged engine all depend on how you drive them. If you drive them like you stole them then you won't get any better fuel economy than their NA counterparts. Meanwhile there are a ton of Cruze ECO owners out there doing 45 MPG all day long.
Are these the ones that try and slow down a mile before reaching a red stoplight in hopes of it turning green before they get there (not knowing the lights work on a sensor and not a timer so it won't actually even think about changing with no cars waiting, so they get there and WAIT anyhow)?

I assume they are the ones who upon getting a green light then accelerate like a 36HP 1955 VW beetle so the MPG display on their dash doesn't dip below some value. (Making it impossible for the Camaro behind to avoid the dreaded skip-shift)

They would also be the ones who don't even so much as yield at stop-signs because they read on the internet that they can save gas by slowing down as little as possible, and that means only stop at intersections if you think the other traffic won't be able to avoid hitting you when you dart in front of them.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:13 PM   #508
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I think I was the one who mentioned the Impala. The V6 hasn't been dropped completely from the '14 Impala, but it's no longer standard.
I was the one who mentioned the next generation Equinox is rumored to not even offer a V6 option. The already too small body is also shrinking.

It looks like the V6 no longer fits at GM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:25 PM   #509
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I was the one who mentioned the next generation Equinox is rumored to not even offer a V6 option. The already too small body is also shrinking.

It looks like the V6 no longer fits at GM.
When there are no more V8 engines OR V6 engines, we will all drive our approved 4 cylinder Eco cars like prius drivers do. Hyper milling I think they call it. We will hyper mill our Camaros at the track-- time won't be important only mpg!
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:32 PM   #510
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Pehaps a weak moment here...lol...But I can't blame Chevy for going with their hottest hitter, the Camaro, when trying to increase sales...It just might end up being the new "Biscayne-Bel-Air-Impala/SS" line of cars...lol...

May not be the "image" we'd all like to see, but could be benign and at least keep top performance versions in the line-up...At least they are "adding" different engines, and none have disappeared "yet"(?)...Could be a good sign for it's future...

At this rate, waiting for the Gen6 is gonna drive me nuts...lol...

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Old 03-11-2013, 06:59 PM   #511
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Cars just need to be on the anorexic side of HEAVY! I used to have a 91' N/A 2.3L 5 speed Foxbody that would get 28MPG on highway with what special technology that today's cars have? NOT MUCH
More technology and "safety" makes them heavy, thus reducing fuel economy that smaller weaker engines are capable of getting. And the cars are still under powered and OVERPRICED!

Why would anyone want a 6 cylinder Camaro over an 8 cylinder???? Same question....same answers for a 4 cyl.?

I would drive a 4 cylinder Camaro as long as the appearance was kick ass! If it was all about performance, we would all be driving exotics.
How about a 4 cyl. turbo diesel that would be about 50MPG?

I would like to see the AFM on my wife's SS stay engaged longer on city/highway to see how much MPG increase it would allow. Not like the power isn't there to allow it to!

MPG doesn't matter anyhow since the less fuel Americans would use, the more expensive it would be per gallon. Greed sucks!
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:30 PM   #512
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All I hear is people saying that Chevy should compromise the heart and style of these cars. Some have said that V8s are on the way out (not just the political guys either). Some have said that 4 bangers are the best thing going. ( but they wouldn't swap their V8 for a turbo 4).

Some say that it will help sales if Camaro appeals to all the economy car buying grocery getting ordinary oatmeal conveyance owning populace. ( but the Vette is a different animal of course a 4 banger Eco Vette would damage their image.) The last idea is "No one is forcing you to buy one.

No one is forcing any one who needs a 4 banger to buy a Camaro, they can buy a spark, a cruze, a Malibu, an impala which ALL have 4 bangers. Why turn Camaro into one of them?
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:40 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
All I hear is people saying that Chevy should compromise the heart and style of these cars. Some have said that V8s are on the way out (not just the political guys either). Some have said that 4 bangers are the best thing going. ( but they wouldn't swap their V8 for a turbo 4).

Some say that it will help sales if Camaro appeals to all the economy car buying grocery getting ordinary oatmeal conveyance owning populace. ( but the Vette is a different animal of course a 4 banger Eco Vette would damage their image.) The last idea is "No one is forcing you to buy one.

No one is forcing any one who needs a 4 banger to buy a Camaro, they can buy a spark, a cruze, a Malibu, an impala which ALL have 4 bangers. Why turn Camaro into one of them?
Can't say I disagree at all, in fact I do agree...But, I've heard it put several different ways, and historically as well, that the 'Vette is sacred,
the Camaro is not...It's an average Joe car...A tough pill to swallow, and hopefully they don't screw things up with the Camaro...But 'Vette is the "it" car...If there were no 'Vette, for sure the Camaro would occupy that niche...
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:04 PM   #514
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Can't say I disagree at all, in fact I do agree...But, I've heard it put several different ways, and historically as well, that the 'Vette is sacred,
the Camaro is not...It's an average Joe car...A tough pill to swallow, and hopefully they don't screw things up with the Camaro...But 'Vette is the "it" car...If there were no 'Vette, for sure the Camaro would occupy that niche...
..actually, the Camaro has been sacrificed, all along, yes it is an average Joe car, but... to the hierarchy of the Vette's refinements<and price> it fits in nicely. We need not a ZL1, but a true Z/28, to restore the alignment. Vettes are the crown no doubt, the ZL1 came to being other than the Z/28 for the variety of reasons already discussed. Use the ZL1 technology, incorporate those advancements into the next Gen car, and restore the Camaro lineup. The Camaro needs no halo car other than the Z/28, the EPA mandates won't make it work for the price involved beyond the surcharge factor bringing a bigger bear to market, <which will be small at most for A ZL1 sales market going forward> and the customers attraction to the lower sales price of the Z/28 will make it a success. Drop ZL1, make Z/28.....
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:34 PM   #515
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..actually, the Camaro has been sacrificed, all along, yes it is an average Joe car, but... to the hierarchy of the Vette's refinements<and price> it fits in nicely. We need not a ZL1, but a true Z/28, to restore the alignment. Vettes are the crown no doubt, the ZL1 came to being other than the Z/28 for the variety of reasons already discussed. Use the ZL1 technology, incorporate those advancements into the next Gen car, and restore the Camaro lineup. The Camaro needs no halo car other than the Z/28, the EPA mandates won't make it work for the price involved beyond the surcharge factor bringing a bigger bear to market, <which will be small at most for A ZL1 sales market going forward> and the customers attraction to the lower sales price of the Z/28 will make it a success. Drop ZL1, make Z/28.....
Mmmmmmm. Z/28
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:37 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by lurchsSS View Post
Cars just need to be on the anorexic side of HEAVY! I used to have a 91' N/A 2.3L 5 speed Foxbody that would get 28MPG on highway with what special technology that today's cars have? NOT MUCH
More technology and "safety" makes them heavy, thus reducing fuel economy that smaller weaker engines are capable of getting. And the cars are still under powered and OVERPRICED!

Why would anyone want a 6 cylinder Camaro over an 8 cylinder???? Same question....same answers for a 4 cyl.?

I would drive a 4 cylinder Camaro as long as the appearance was kick ass! If it was all about performance, we would all be driving exotics.
How about a 4 cyl. turbo diesel that would be about 50MPG?

I would like to see the AFM on my wife's SS stay engaged longer on city/highway to see how much MPG increase it would allow. Not like the power isn't there to allow it to!

MPG doesn't matter anyhow since the less fuel Americans would use, the more expensive it would be per gallon. Greed sucks!
If it was all about gas mileage we would all drive Prius.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:57 PM   #517
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Small displacement turbocharged engine all depend on how you drive them. If you drive them like you stole them then you won't get any better fuel economy than their NA counterparts. Meanwhile there are a ton of Cruze ECO owners out there doing 45 MPG all day long.
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Yeah, I got better MPG than the sticker said on my Cruze and I'm getting better MPG on my EcoBoost F-150 than the sticker claimed. You just have to learn to keep out of boost when you don't need it.
I had an Ecoboost F150 too, and I found that the MPG wasn't much better for me than my Chevy. I believe it to be mainly because of where I live and drive. It's very hilly so you're on the gas bringing the turbos in more. Also in my Chevy truck, it didn't matter how I drove it. It averaged about the same MPG. In the Ecoboost F150, if I drove it on the highway and didn't breath on the throttle, then it would get way better than my Chevy. I only did it as an experiment though because it's not realistic to drive like that all the time.

I did love the power though of the F150.

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Old 03-11-2013, 09:16 PM   #518
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I had an Ecoboost F150 too, and I found that the MPG wasn't much better for me than my Chevy. I believe it to be mainly because of where I live and drive. It's very hilly so you're on the gas bringing the turbos in more. Also in my Chevy truck, it didn't matter how I drove it. It averaged about the same MPG. In the Ecoboost F150, if I drove it on the highway and didn't breath on the throttle, then it would get way better than my Chevy. I only did it as an experiment though because it's not realistic to drive like that all the time.

I did live the power though of the F150.
No doubt it takes gas to make power regardless how you do it. However, with the smaller displacement you can just set the cruise control at 70 and get 23-24 MPG. Hit a hill though and it will use the turbos and more gas. A slightly larger engine like a 3.8 or 4.0 would help there, but a lighter vehichle would too. I don't think either will happen.

I personally think the turbo V6 works better in a heavy vehicle, up to a limit. From the torque and hp values we are seeing for the LF3 it really sounds to me that it is tuned for a SUV or truck and not a car. Only time will tell.
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