[Angrybird 12]

Two suggestions that may help with the continuity of the rear design.
First you may want to draw the bottom in a little at the corners to help get rid of the slab side look. Secondly if you move the rear side marker down to be at the same level as your reverse lights it would flow better looking at it from the 3/4 rear side view.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

I have too many inputs to elaborate on, heh. I thought I'd hit on some of my big ones while I have a chance, since you do like inputs (one way or another).

-PLEASE, for the love of all that is good and sporty, make the Z/28's fender flares BODY COLORED ONLY. Black on any other color has traditionally meant OFF ROAD and always has, for the most part (though my opinion is that it looks really stupid there, too). There's a good reason that the Z/28 reveal car had body colored flares despite the GFX being black. As always, though, it's your concept so do what you want.

-Raise the entire lower half of the front fascia. Part of the reason that the nose has looked so 'slab-like' is that it extends down too far in relation to the upper half. This would also give it some real-world ground clearance ahead of the front wheels. Save the ground hugging for the Z/28's splitter.

-From one of the front 3/4 views, it does remind me of a late 80's El Camino... and it did well before anyone else mentioned it. I think it's because the flat-hip rear quarters combined with the greenhouse's taper inward toward the rear, it looks slightly like a cargo-bed back there from that particular angle. Add that to the slab-like nose and bam... it just pops into my head.
I maintain that the car needs more of a raised 'hip' but I understand what you're trying to go for.

-"Hideous" is purely subjective... 100% opinion. Therefore, there is absolutely no argument for or against it.

(For the record... I haven't been posting because I've been very busy getting our spacecraft ready to ship to Japan for launch in Feb., not because I've lost interest in your concept. The shutdown really screwed us up. It's ready to ship now though, and my group's ground support equipment [GSE] just shipped so I can relax 'just' a bit [still have other work to do though]).

Good to see you posting again! Z/28 wheel flares will be body colored. I've done some work on the front in the snapshots below. This particular design just doesn't lend itself to rear hips because the coke bottle pinch is at the front of the door instead of the back. I tried it; just didn't look right.

I disagree on the idea that "hideous" is purely subjective. People with good taste can always tell the difference.

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

Oh, and I could be wrong, but I think the commonly used "coke bottle" reference means the car's shape from above looking straight down. IOW, in general the fenders flare out and the doors pinch in. I don't think it refers to the side view as you've been interpreting it.

No, the coke bottle effect was a reference to the pinched waist of aircraft that made its way style-wise into both the Camaro and the Corvette. If I remember right it first showed up on the 1965 Mako Shark concept car which was the forerunner of the 68' Vette. The Camaro actually got the coke bottle waist first as a production car I believe.

Originally Posted by WiSSDiver

Doc, I have to say that what you've done here is at a minimum, admirable and after reading your logic on the last page as to what influenced your design is incredible. That fact that you would not only take the time to document some design ideas but to take the time to learn a functional design program to bring those ideas to life and to then open up the design to a community team concept? Well, damn man. I give you mad props for that. What you've done takes an incredible investment in time and your willingness to share it is equally admirable.

I've been a somewhat of a silent luker, commenting here and there with mostly complements, but aside from design comments, most people here are missing the bigger issue here that I believe (hope) is not lost with GM designers of the 6th Gen. If they're smart and regardless of final design, there truly is a vested community within Camaro owners that are willing "pitch in" which is the part They know already, but the part they can really tap in to are the well thought out functional design concepts that you've brought to light. Visibility in particular is a big complaint that I've always had with the current design for example. So GM, I hope your taking these sort concepts into consideration with your designs.

Again, Doc. Thank you for bringing your ideas to life, but more importantly giving GM a solid resource from current owners and not only a voice from this group, but the example of what we might like to see. As much as I love my 5th Gen, (and my 1st Gen) I'd buy your concept car in heartbeat.

Wow... thank you for the high praise and great review! The refinements continue so hopefully you'll continue to like what you see evolving. And thanks for contributing to the thread!

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

Yeah, it looks like you're right, thanks for the info. Like I said, I could be wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke_bottle_styling

Ironically, the raised 'hip' that I keep mentioning is the rear part of the 'Coke bottle shape' as it is commonly referred to. I dislike that reference, but it is what it is.
I think the car needs more "Coke bottle" in the rear quarter.

I think that wiki link is a bit too generous on calling some of those shapes a coke bottle. Most of those early cars simply have a fender bulge which was a style that went way back to early days of racing where the car builders were trying to enclose coach-type wheels (like were on Model T's) to reduce drag and improve aerodynamics. The coke bottle waist was more than a fender bulge; it was a top and bottom "pinch" of the side that resulted in a kind of fender bulge, but there generally wasn't an extra extended bulge.

Originally Posted by Sesiom Summers

love the design but not sure about the rear panels and the rear in general

this camaro is even more boxy than the current gen, and the rear reminds me of the F-40, but the desing is elegant and keeps some part of the old camaros heritage (by the way those rims looks like a mix between Iroc Z and F-40) hehehe



you forgot one of the mos important parts of 5 gen camaros... the ''hips'' w/out hips the car would look boring from the sides


sill this is an awesome job, and hope GM took a similar path to you, that front looks killer

Thank you for the feedback! The rims were the result of FenwickHockey (a forum member) mentioning that GM requires 5-spoke wheels; my original concept had 6-spoke, so I came up with these to be GM correct. I wanted something that was clean and looked like it was designed by a racing engineer instead of an illustrator or just a sketch artist.

Originally Posted by Firefighter

Looking at the latest rendition of the front end... I'm not too sure about it. That lower opening is oddly reminiscent of the Guppy Mouth on a Nissan GT-R. Personally I can't stand a GT-R and the guppy mouth is my most hated feature of it.

I think if you make the bottom cross bar a touch thicker so it is more defined it will improve the look and get away from the guppy look. Maybe try and make it less trapezoidal while your at it. I know that might affect the lower ports a touch.

Overall I like the look it has a "racecar" feel to it. Almost reminiscent of a NASCAR look from before the current cars.

Keep up the great work.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Thank you for the feedback! Refinements on the front continue so hopefully they'll address the concerns you mentioned.

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

This isn't a big suggestion, but one I'd like to see.

If you look at the pictures you posted of the 5th gen model next to your concept 6th gen, look at how the sheet metal is flat around the wheel well edges on the 5th gen, whereas on your concept the sheet metal doesn't have this little flat area. The body curve just continues on to the edge of the wheel well.

I could be wrong, but I think this slight change could be an improvement to your design.

I agree with ALLTRBO about raising the lower half of the fascia.

I've thought about that feature and studied it a bit. It appears to come from the idea of making a fender look thick, bulky and massive like a big truck or off-road vehicle. My original vision was a street-legal racing/track car so after considering (and actually trying) that style, I chose to go with the cleaner race car look. My whole concept is about sleek, streamlined, sharp and elegant....thick, massive and bulky just doesn't work on it.

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

Two suggestions that may help with the continuity of the rear design.
First you may want to draw the bottom in a little at the corners to help get rid of the slab side look. Secondly if you move the rear side marker down to be at the same level as your reverse lights it would flow better looking at it from the 3/4 rear side view.

Refinements continue on the rear and side; I have to do them gradually so I don't screw up the polygon mesh. I'm literally moving things a 1/2 inch, 3/4 inch, 1 inch, etc. so I can fix and clean up the resulting side-effects of moving anything on the body.

I originally put the rear side marker lower on my early drawings but decided to put them where they are now for two very important reasons; visibility and safety. The car is already pretty low and I was afraid that moving the side marker down (which is used as a turn signal) to basically tire-height would be a visibility issue for drivers in large trucks, SUV's, etc. that sit pretty high up with a huge vehicle front blocking a lot of their lower forward view. For that same reason I chose to put the third (center) brake light in the back of the shark fin on the roof; to get it up high and make it easy to see when you put the brakes on. With a car that's as low as this one, things like this can make an important safety difference; especially at night.

- - - - -

Here are the results of the latest revisions. A LOT of small tweaks were made to the wheelbase, wheel track, body width, front, lower front, lower front grill (opened it up more), and many small changes in the back. I raised the bottom of the very back to give more of a slant downward towards the rear wheel to help minimize the "slab" effect others have referred to.








This one I included because I just liked the way it looked with the sun glare on it.

[ALLTRBO]

I'm liking these tweaks, overall. The nose looks more proportionate now.

I'm going to try to do something that I've never been good at when it comes to anydesign input... short and sweet. We'll see how well that works out, heh. Explanations will be missing but believe me, I think about this a lot, too, and I usually know what you're thinking. Great minds and all that.

-Bring up the bottom edge of the front fascia just a tad more, maybe 1/2 inch.

-Be careful with the soft edges; You're going back to the 90's again. Some of that was needed in places, but not as many places as you've done.

-The old school Ferrari looking wheels have always bothered me. The car has more than enough 70's/80's Ferrari in it to begin with. Try to take more current-styling inspiration for the wheels. Most here seem to LOVE the ZL1/1LE split-5 spokes, for example. Just PLEASE stay away from all-black.

-The mirrors have always been too small, too far forward, and too low. Seeing the actual mirrors clearly is one thing, what those mirrors actually show you is another altogether. They're small AND further away from the eyes than normal. That seriously limits their FOV without adding way too much fish-eye.

That's all for now, gotta run.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

...

-The old school Ferrari looking wheels have always bothered me. The car has more than enough 70's/80's Ferrari in it to begin with. Try to take more current-styling inspiration for the wheels. Most here seem to LOVE the ZL1/1LE split-5 spokes, for example. Just PLEASE stay away from all-black.

.....

I've been wanting to say the same for a long while now. I know you don't want to use a design that is on the current car, so maybe you can find something similar, but honestly the wheels just look VERY 80s / 90s. to me. I think that is part of the issue with this model that is throwing some people off.

I didn't really say anything because I just tried to concentrate on the car itself and ignore the wheels, but now that its been brought up I'd really recommend just taking the ZL1 5, or split-5 spokes and throwing them into your rending if at all possible. It will completely change the look of the car.

Something else that bothers me is that the wheels look like they are tucked in very far into the fender wells compared to most modern sports coupes. I realize bringing out the tires/wheels may change some dimensions on your design (b/c I'm assuming you already have 275ish sized tires on the car?) but hopefully not. Moral of the paragraph...push em out. Its just looks more bad ass. lol

[Bad@ssCamaro]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

I've been wanting to say the same for a long while now. I know you don't want to use a design that is on the current car, so maybe you can find something similar, but honestly the wheels just look VERY 80s / 90s. to me. I think that is part of the issue with this model that is throwing some people off.

I didn't really say anything because I just tried to concentrate on the car itself and ignore the wheels, but now that its been brought up I'd really recommend just taking the ZL1 5, or split-5 spokes and throwing them into your rending if at all possible. It will completely change the look of the car.

Something else that bothers me is that the wheels look like they are tucked in very far into the fender wells compared to most modern sports coupes. I realize bringing out the tires/wheels may change some dimensions on your design (b/c I'm assuming you already have 275ish sized tires on the car?) but hopefully not. Moral of the paragraph...push em out. Its just looks more bad ass. lol

or narrow the width of the body. I agree with the style of the wheels needing a more modern "refresh", something similar to the Z/28 maybe.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

I'm liking these tweaks, overall. The nose looks more proportionate now.

I'm going to try to do something that I've never been good at when it comes to anydesign input... short and sweet. We'll see how well that works out, heh. Explanations will be missing but believe me, I think about this a lot, too, and I usually know what you're thinking. Great minds and all that.

-Bring up the bottom edge of the front fascia just a tad more, maybe 1/2 inch.

-Be careful with the soft edges; You're going back to the 90's again. Some of that was needed in places, but not as many places as you've done.

-The old school Ferrari looking wheels have always bothered me. The car has more than enough 70's/80's Ferrari in it to begin with. Try to take more current-styling inspiration for the wheels. Most here seem to LOVE the ZL1/1LE split-5 spokes, for example. Just PLEASE stay away from all-black.

-The mirrors have always been too small, too far forward, and too low. Seeing the actual mirrors clearly is one thing, what those mirrors actually show you is another altogether. They're small AND further away from the eyes than normal. That seriously limits their FOV without adding way too much fish-eye.

That's all for now, gotta run.

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

I've been wanting to say the same for a long while now. I know you don't want to use a design that is on the current car, so maybe you can find something similar, but honestly the wheels just look VERY 80s / 90s. to me. I think that is part of the issue with this model that is throwing some people off.

I didn't really say anything because I just tried to concentrate on the car itself and ignore the wheels, but now that its been brought up I'd really recommend just taking the ZL1 5, or split-5 spokes and throwing them into your rending if at all possible. It will completely change the look of the car.

Something else that bothers me is that the wheels look like they are tucked in very far into the fender wells compared to most modern sports coupes. I realize bringing out the tires/wheels may change some dimensions on your design (b/c I'm assuming you already have 275ish sized tires on the car?) but hopefully not. Moral of the paragraph...push em out. Its just looks more bad ass. lol

Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro

or narrow the width of the body. I agree with the style of the wheels needing a more modern "refresh", something similar to the Z/28 maybe.

Thanks for the feedback guys! I've been tweaking and working to pull in the wheel base and track to match the dimensions of the Alpha platform which is why the body appears to stick out so much; because it actually does at the moment. Once I get the wheel base and track matched, I'll pull in the width of the body. I'm saving that last because that's going to be a rather time-consuming and tedious task and I only want to do it once.

As for the wheels... that's such a subjective area. I actually don't like any of the wheels that come with any of the Camaros. I personally don't like wheel designs that have the spokes all the way to the outside of the rim. I know that's what toy cars have which is why so many probably like them but I prefer racing style. I can play around with that a bit and see what I can come up with. I'm not focusing on that too much though because changing the wheels is typically one of the first mods people make.

I can make the outside mirrors a bit bigger but their location was carefully chosen specifically for driver visibility. I wanted them to NOT be in the way when cornering, and the farther forward they are, the less distance your eye has to travel to check them. Ideally you can see them while still having the forward view in your peripheral vision in case something happens in front of you that needs your immediate attention.

Here's a couple of views showing the advantage of the current mirror location:

[stt816]

i love your dedication, just needs more work....still has that retro 80s ferarri feel to it from the side...maybe change the gills as well, it kind of over-powers the side....keep it up!

[Doc]

Originally Posted by stt816

i love your dedication, just needs more work....still has that retro 80s ferarri feel to it from the side...maybe change the gills as well, it kind of over-powers the side....keep it up!

Thank you and thanks for the feedback! I personally don't consider a "retro Ferrari" feel to be a negative myself lol. The gills are completely functional; in addition to allowing brake cooling the transmission and differential coolers are back there so I estimated the size needed to allow enough air through.

- - - - - -

After looking into an attempt at narrowing the body I've decided to not do that; it's a ridiculous can of worms to make that many changes at this point just to narrow the car a few inches. Not worth the amount of time it would take. This concept is just a styling concept anyways, not an engineering concept. Anybody looking at these snapshots gets the general idea.

I went ahead and moved the wheels back out where they should be even though that's slightly more than the Alpha chassis wheel track. I also removed the black backs of the 5 spokes so you can see through them now. Maybe that will help them not look so Ferrari-like.

These snapshots also have bigger outside mirrors; I increased the size by about 15%.

[stt816]

you may like the retro ferarri look, but do you really think GM will be going in that direction? Again I'm not busting your balls, just trying to make this more realistic. I personally don't believe GM is going to go with the retro look at all for the 6th gen Some were saying it will be based off the 2nd gen styling (just as 5th gen was based off 1st gen). . I don't think so, I think they are just going to make a very modern looking Camaro. That's my take anyways....to tell you the truth I like the one you made on the first page the most

Last thing, you really think GM would make the same mistake of putting the reverse lights in the bumper? Hope not lol

[The Stig]

Originally Posted by stt816

you may like the retro ferarri look, but do you really think GM will be going in that direction? Again I'm not busting your balls, just trying to make this more realistic. I personally don't believe GM is going to go with the retro look at all for the 6th gen Some were saying it will be based off the 2nd gen styling (just as 5th gen was based off 1st gen). . I don't think so, I think they are just going to make a very modern looking Camaro. That's my take anyways....to tell you the truth I like the one you made on the first page the most

Last thing, you really think GM would make the same mistake of putting the reverse lights in the bumper? Hope not lol

I don't think it was so much the reverse lights in the bumper, but where they were in the bumper that bothered people.

[ALLTRBO]

Originally Posted by Doc

I can make the outside mirrors a bit bigger but their location was carefully chosen specifically for driver visibility. I wanted them to NOT be in the way when cornering, and the farther forward they are, the less distance your eye has to travel to check them. Ideally you can see them while still having the forward view in your peripheral vision in case something happens in front of you that needs your immediate attention.

Here's a couple of views showing the advantage of the current mirror location:

No, no... You may have missed my point. Yes, for forward visibility, the location and size is wonderful. I'm referring to rearward visibility. The further away the mirror is from your eyes, the less area the reflection will cover. The smaller the mirror, the less area the reflection will cover. Both together can lead to rear visibility and blind-spot issues (providing that the mirrors are adjusted correctly in the first place). Street cars aren't always driven exclusively at the track, and we can't always drive while looking over our shoulder. As always, it's a balancing act. I just think that, in real life, your mirrors wouldn't be as useful as they should.
Also as always, keep up the good work.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by stt816

you may like the retro ferarri look, but do you really think GM will be going in that direction? Again I'm not busting your balls, just trying to make this more realistic. I personally don't believe GM is going to go with the retro look at all for the 6th gen Some were saying it will be based off the 2nd gen styling (just as 5th gen was based off 1st gen). . I don't think so, I think they are just going to make a very modern looking Camaro. That's my take anyways....to tell you the truth I like the one you made on the first page the most

Last thing, you really think GM would make the same mistake of putting the reverse lights in the bumper? Hope not lol

It's hard to say but looking at the C7 Stingray, that has more in common with Italian styling than I would have expected. Which isn't a bad thing by any means. Italian styling has always been considered exotic and passionate; nothing wrong with that! I expect they'll probably hang onto more than a bit of retro for the Camaro simply because it was so successful in the 5th gen and they don't want to risk alienating their existing customer base. I'm guessing there are some very interesting discussions taking place between being cautious and conservative versus throwing all caution to the wind and going radical.

You know, I may still try a version with that original front end...clean it up a bit. It was more organic than what I have now and it might be interesting to see how it looks in 3D. Maybe make a modern Chevelle out of it.

I don't see why they wouldn't consider reverse lights in the bumper; it works.

Originally Posted by The Stig

I don't think it was so much the reverse lights in the bumper, but where they were in the bumper that bothered people.

Yeah that was my take on it too.

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

No, no... You may have missed my point. Yes, for forward visibility, the location and size is wonderful. I'm referring to rearward visibility. The further away the mirror is from your eyes, the less area the reflection will cover. The smaller the mirror, the less area the reflection will cover. Both together can lead to rear visibility and blind-spot issues (providing that the mirrors are adjusted correctly in the first place). Street cars aren't always driven exclusively at the track, and we can't always drive while looking over our shoulder. As always, it's a balancing act. I just think that, in real life, your mirrors wouldn't be as useful as they should.
Also as always, keep up the good work.

Ah...rear side visibility. The other side of that coin is the closer to you the rear mirror is, the more you have to change your eye focus away from the distant focus of the front. The 2 or 3 seconds it takes to refocus on the front is all it takes to rear-end someone which I've seen happen many times on the road; especially in bumper-to-bumper freeway traffic here in California.

I can make the mirror even larger; that's easy to do and because of it's location it doesn't block the forward/corner view. Where it's located right now allows you to still "see" well enough in front of you with your peripheral vision so that you can start braking or making a steering move without having to wait the 2-3 seconds for your vision to refocus to recognize what you need to do, if anything.

It's a fine difference and something I think would be worthwhile testing at their development facility to see how much of a difference it actually would make in reaction times. It's the kind of thing you could probably do in a simulator where it would be easy to move the mirror location, change the size of the mirror, and measure/track the results with a driver/test subject.

I'll see how large I can make the mirror without it looking out of proportion.

- - - - -

On a different note... I'd like to see GM pick up the ball on color choices and go with some really dynamic colors on the 6th gen. Here are some of the colors I think are missing.

I always liked Hugger Orange so I'd like to see them either bring that back or something very close to it. While researching images on the web there were a lot of variations due to color accuracy of the photos so I came up with as close a version as I could.



A really solid, strong yellow that doesn't look sickly or anemic:



A gorgeous rich blue:



A solid, healthy forest green:



I would like to see colors that are rich and bold; colors that match the dynamic character of what a Camaro is. It's an exciting car and deserves equally exciting colors.

[Doc]

Outside mirrors are even larger now. I don't want to make them any larger or they'd look like truck mirrors. You can see from the back view that both mirrors have a clear view looking back.

[LSXaddict]

I am growing more and more fond of it as it progresses. The general body lines kind of remind me of a Cadillac XLR