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Old 03-11-2013, 10:22 PM   #519
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I want to bring up a point that no one seems to want to mention. Let's talk about market share.

All these import companies showed up on American soil with 4-bangers when Americans were paying too much for gas—no, not by today's standards—and provided an alternative to the less efficient domestic products. GM market share drastically shrank. GM used to be over 50% of American car sales, but now that number is below 20%.

GM has room to take back that market share by taking away the one good reason to buy imports, fuel economy. If GM can compete on all platforms with all types of engines, there's a good chance that those sales will convert to future GM sales. That is how you get market share. GM should ambitiously attack imports with cars that are like imports, but they have to do it with American styling. The Camaro is a great example of American badassery when it comes to styling. Imagine putting a smaller, lighter Camaro against the slow FR-S. Put a turbo-4 in the Camaro to fight the underpowered H-4 in the FR-S. The Camaro will start taking their sales away. Put that same car against a Genesis. Take those sales, too. Suddenly, you're not just fighting other Americans for sales, you're taking back sales from invading corporations who bring nothing special to the table. When those Camaro drivers have a family, they'll be more likely to consider other GM vehicles since they'll be driving GM vehicles already, at which point they will consider a GM crossover. When they buy their kid their first car, they'll fondly remember their old Camaro. It wasn't the fastest thing on 4 wheels, but it was fun, and they'll want their kid to experience that, so they buy their kid an old Camaro. Over time, GM will take back the market share it lost over generations of fighting a losing battle over fuel economy.

Offering a 4-cylinder Camaro is good for GM. It doesn't mean GM has to give up anything. Maybe it means GM's competitors have to give up some market share instead.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:24 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
I want to bring up a point that no one seems to want to mention. Let's talk about market share.

All these import companies showed up on American soil with 4-bangers when Americans were paying too much for gas—no, not by today's standards—and provided an alternative to the less efficient domestic products. GM market share drastically shrank. GM used to be over 50% of American car sales, but now that number is below 20%.

GM has room to take back that market share by taking away the one good reason to buy imports, fuel economy. If GM can compete on all platforms with all types of engines, there's a good chance that those sales will convert to future GM sales. That is how you get market share. GM should ambitiously attack imports with cars that are like imports, but they have to do it with American styling. The Camaro is a great example of American badassery when it comes to styling. Imagine putting a smaller, lighter Camaro against the slow FR-S. Put a turbo-4 in the Camaro to fight the underpowered H-4 in the FR-S. The Camaro will start taking their sales away. Put that same car against a Genesis. Take those sales, too. Suddenly, you're not just fighting other Americans for sales, you're taking back sales from invading corporations who bring nothing special to the table. When those Camaro drivers have a family, they'll be more likely to consider other GM vehicles since they'll be driving GM vehicles already, at which point they will consider a GM crossover. When they buy their kid their first car, they'll fondly remember their old Camaro. It wasn't the fastest thing on 4 wheels, but it was fun, and they'll want their kid to experience that, so they buy their kid an old Camaro. Over time, GM will take back the market share it lost over generations of fighting a losing battle over fuel economy.

Offering a 4-cylinder Camaro is good for GM. It doesn't mean GM has to give up anything. Maybe it means GM's competitors have to give up some market share instead.
I think they should do everything you suggest, with one exception... they must name it something OTHER than "Camaro".
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:57 PM   #521
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Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
I want to bring up a point that no one seems to want to mention. Let's talk about market share.

All these import companies showed up on American soil with 4-bangers when Americans were paying too much for gas—no, not by today's standards—and provided an alternative to the less efficient domestic products. GM market share drastically shrank. GM used to be over 50% of American car sales, but now that number is below 20%.

GM has room to take back that market share by taking away the one good reason to buy imports, fuel economy. If GM can compete on all platforms with all types of engines, there's a good chance that those sales will convert to future GM sales. That is how you get market share. GM should ambitiously attack imports with cars that are like imports, but they have to do it with American styling. The Camaro is a great example of American badassery when it comes to styling. Imagine putting a smaller, lighter Camaro against the slow FR-S. Put a turbo-4 in the Camaro to fight the underpowered H-4 in the FR-S. The Camaro will start taking their sales away. Put that same car against a Genesis. Take those sales, too. Suddenly, you're not just fighting other Americans for sales, you're taking back sales from invading corporations who bring nothing special to the table. When those Camaro drivers have a family, they'll be more likely to consider other GM vehicles since they'll be driving GM vehicles already, at which point they will consider a GM crossover. When they buy their kid their first car, they'll fondly remember their old Camaro. It wasn't the fastest thing on 4 wheels, but it was fun, and they'll want their kid to experience that, so they buy their kid an old Camaro. Over time, GM will take back the market share it lost over generations of fighting a losing battle over fuel economy.

Offering a 4-cylinder Camaro is good for GM. It doesn't mean GM has to give up anything. Maybe it means GM's competitors have to give up some market share instead.
How about Chevy develops something for the younger people that doesn't have the generic grille. It makes the cars look like they are for moms and grandmas. Put the turbo 4 banger in a small car that looks edgy, price it right and built it right. Chevy needs some edgier car designs in my opinion. I get that cars like the Malibu are geared towards moms who want boring looking cars but if they want to steal market share away from imports, the cars have to get the attention. Imports already have the attention and the fan base so Chevy has to do something to take it back.

I don't think taking the Camaro down to Civic level is the right way to do it.
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:17 AM   #522
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If it was all about gas mileage we would all drive Prius.
If it was all about gas mileage, I'd hotrod something like a Miata or an old MG. Mostly out of simple preference, but I won't deny that there would be an element of "anti-Prius" defiance in the spirit of original hotrodding.


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Old 03-12-2013, 07:29 AM   #523
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:07 AM   #524
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How about Chevy develops something for the younger people that doesn't have the generic grille. It makes the cars look like they are for moms and grandmas. Put the turbo 4 banger in a small car that looks edgy, price it right and built it right. Chevy needs some edgier car designs in my opinion. I get that cars like the Malibu are geared towards moms who want boring looking cars but if they want to steal market share away from imports, the cars have to get the attention. Imports already have the attention and the fan base so Chevy has to do something to take it back.

I don't think taking the Camaro down to Civic level is the right way to do it.
When my 20yr old son and I went to the LA car show 2yrs ago, that is exactly what they described the Sonic as..edgier, younger buyers, turbo 4, compete with the imports, etc...
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:15 AM   #525
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When my 20yr old son and I went to the LA car show 2yrs ago, that is exactly what they described the Sonic as..edgier, younger buyers, turbo 4, compete with the imports, etc...
For me when I look at the Sonic, all I really see is a commuter vehicle. IMO if GM wants to compete with the performance imports, they need an updated version of the Solstice or Sky.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:54 AM   #526
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http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...age-2#comments

Here is a link to a review for one of the best selling cars around. THIS is what the commuter set want. Look at how many love and defend a car that accelerates like "A fat guy looking for a bench to sit down on."

If you make the Camaro please them in order to take sales away from Toyota, it won't please the Permagrin people like me who are proud to drive them.

People who actually care that when they step on the gas, the menacing rumble of a classic American muscle car pushes them back in the drivers seat.

People who can't help smiling when the back end breaks loose or feel an inexplicable happiness just walking toward their car in a parking lot, as the expectation builds of another time spent with an old friend.

I know in my head that you are probably right about market share, but in my heart I know that if this car ever gets reviews like a prius or Honda hybrid, if it becomes a gutless plastic DustBuster on wheels to mollify the people you want to sell to, it won't be the Camaro I'm on this site for. It will just become another crappy ordinary oatmeal conveyance for the masses.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:36 AM   #527
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When my 20yr old son and I went to the LA car show 2yrs ago, that is exactly what they described the Sonic as..edgier, younger buyers, turbo 4, compete with the imports, etc...
I get that the Sonic is supposed to be a more exciting car for younger people but I don't like the design.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:49 PM   #528
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Doesn't do anything for me either. I much prefer something that's more graceful than a wedgy little doorstop on wheels.


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Old 03-12-2013, 01:37 PM   #529
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I think they should do everything you suggest, with one exception... they must name it something OTHER than "Camaro".
That's a very good point. So many people relate that name to a redneck trailer trash vehicle. I got it all the time in my SS and now even with my ZL1.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:53 PM   #530
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I think I was the one who mentioned the Impala. The V6 hasn't been dropped completely from the '14 Impala, but it's no longer standard. The standard engine is the 195-hp 2.5L non-turbo four-cylinder. Any way you slice it, that's a pretty major downgrade from the tried-and-true 3.6 DI V6 that's standard in the '13 Impala... and the '14 Impala is slated to costs thousands more.
Taking away content and charging more is going to be a losing proposition for the next Impala. They will be odd man out in their class with a NA 4-cyl.

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All these import companies showed up on American soil with 4-bangers when Americans were paying too much for gas—no, not by today's standards—and provided an alternative to the less efficient domestic products. GM market share drastically shrank. GM used to be over 50% of American car sales, but now that number is below 20%.
I have to disagree with your logic here. GM's market share slide over the last 45 years occurred for many reasons, and not reducing horsepower enough is not very high on the list. To some extent, the gas shocks in the 70s hurt, but what has been the excuse for the last 30 years?

The problem was for a lot of years they were shoddily built, and far behind their competition in terms of reliability/durability, fit/finish and build quality, refinement, handling, content, etc.

GM did offer small, 4-cyl cars, even in the early 70s. What turned people off to GM was they were unrefined junk. Engine failure at 50K miles was common, and some were known to literally rust away in a few months sitting in climate controlled dealer showrooms.

While the durability and build quality improved somewhat, though not enough, over the years, the other issues still lingered. The current Impala didn't die on the vine because it didn't offer a small 4-cyl, but because in terms of chassis dynamics and content, it was a relic...a 1990s car trying to sell 15 years past its time. Remember the 2004-2007 Malibu? The Cobalt? The Aveo? All of the last Pontiacs except the G8? The W-body LaCrosse and Lucerne lineup over at Buick? Can you really look at that lineup of cars and argue that not having smaller, less powerful engines in them was the problem?

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GM has room to take back that market share by taking away the one good reason to buy imports, fuel economy. If GM can compete on all platforms with all types of engines, there's a good chance that those sales will convert to future GM sales. That is how you get market share. GM should ambitiously attack imports with cars that are like imports, but they have to do it with American styling. The Camaro is a great example of American badassery when it comes to styling. Imagine putting a smaller, lighter Camaro against the slow FR-S.
You're half right and half wrong here. Yes, GM needs to compete on all platforms with all types of engines, and if they could do that, they would take back some market share.

However, such a thing involves actually competing on platforms...which means if they want to compete against the FR-S, they need to have a comparable platform, and Alpha isn't it. Trying to turn a 3300-3400 lb Alpha based Camaro into something comparable to a 2700 lb FR-S is a battle lost before it even begins, particularly when the turbo FR-S arrives. And thus, trying to change and sell an Alpha Camaro into something that appeals to the FR-S buyer will not succeed in stealing FR-S sales, it will only give the Camaro type buyer less to buy. You are not going to be able to attract both the niche that wants a small, ultra light 4-cyl sports car and the one that wants a larger, torquey, more powerful car with the same car. If you want two different markets, you need two different cars.

You have to compete, but you cannot copy, either. You have to give your buyers a unique reason to choose your car. With today's level of competition, and the number of choices out there, you can't just be the same. Some people like Pepsi, and some like Coke. Changing Coke into Pepsi wasn't a reason for Pepsi drinkers to switch to Coke, it was just a reason for Coke drinkers to stop buying.

Yes, GM needs smaller, efficient 4-cyl cars to compete against similar offerings like the Camry, Accord, Civic, etc....The answer is to build a competitive Malibu or Cruze that competes with those cars. Turning the Camaro, a car that sells for reasons having nothing to do with economy, into an economy car, is not the right strategy. All that does is take away the characteristics of the Camaro that give that car the unique selling point responsible for its success.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:19 PM   #531
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Well put, Mr. Fielder...As far as marketing goes, I would add to Blur's point...that is keep it uniquely American...I've seen several threads from folks in Russia, Lebanon, the Middle East who are totally stoked with V-8 American muscle...
...for some reason the need to copy and please "Europian" tastes and trends, offer something for the Man-purse crowd with the Camaro, is a total missed opportunity to keep these cars "special" instead of believing they only want what they can get in other cars...The I-4 will look copy-catish, and a feeble attemt to be like everyone else....

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Old 03-12-2013, 02:45 PM   #532
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The problem is that it's not just up to GM to decide what routes they want to take. Some routes are forced upon them. Blur and RevyChevy both touched on that as well. Back when automakers were able to make cars solely based on what consumers wanted, more people considered themselves enthusiasts. Now that automakers cant solely rely on consumer demand, but must instead cater to the whims of the Gov't as well, more and more people are now looking at cars as just a way to get from Point A to Point B.
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