05-30-2016, 09:03 PM | #1 |
BigShow
Drives: 2017 1 Camaro + Chevy Avalanche Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Tucson
Posts: 335
|
Weak Brakes after Track Day
After tracking my car the brakes are not very sharp. This was my first ever track event which was at the Mid Ohio Sports Car Course. I really noticed the braking difference because I just got back from vacation where I rented a convertible A6 Camaro.
A week prior to track day I had my dealer change brake fluid. The pedal was never squishy, so I don't think that there's a gas bubble in the brake lines. The brakes don't pulse, so the rotor aren't warped. The track day air temps were cool, in the 40s and the first day was mostly wet. I only had three dry sets where I worked the breaks hard. I had a lot of trouble changing my street braking habits to threshold breaking. I wanted to brake or I was braking a lot more than my instructor wanted me to. After my last set he said something like "your going to need to get better brake pads if your going to take your car to the track more", which I interpreted to mean, "you brake too much". So, I'm going to schedule an appointment with my dealer to look at the brakes. My question is Is it normal for heavy track day braking to dull brake performance and will or should braking response return to normal after XXX miles? |
05-30-2016, 09:13 PM | #2 |
KaBoom1701
Drives: 13' ZL1 Red M6 Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: I.E. SoCal (Yucaipa)
Posts: 8,630
|
I cooked my V6 brakes the first time I went with my LFX.....it's what prompted me to upgrade to SS brembos on my V6 when I had it.
__________________
Mods:
Roto-Fab Intake, WW Res. kit & Big Gulp Air Scoop, Elite Catch Can, ATI Super Damper & 18% OD Pulley, LF Idler pulley bracket, Metco CC breather, ID850 Injectors, Stainless Power Headers w/ ceramic coating, TR71X Spark Plugs, JMS Fuel Pump Booster, Bo White TB, Tuned by Ted @ Jannetty Racing, Ron Davis HX, D3 Reservoir, Pfadt 1" Springs, Moreno Camber Plates, ZL1 Addons Splitter guard washers, Tow Hook kit & rock guards, Hurst Shifter Billet Plus 6 Speed Short Shifter, ZL1 DRL lighting harness, ZL1 Recaro Seats. |
05-30-2016, 09:29 PM | #3 |
Drives: pleather and Chiclets Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: a line somwhere
Posts: 4,206
|
I don't know any info about your brakes. Did you have pads and fluids and lines for your brakes that are capable of operating at a road course temperature? If not...
__________________
|
05-30-2016, 09:43 PM | #4 |
Team 913
Drives: '14 ZL1, '15 Jeep GC, ‘22 Ram 2500 Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: USA, Central CA
Posts: 1,119
|
I smoked my stock zl1 brake pads at thunder hill last month... Can't imagine v6 brakes trying to road course...
Resurfaced the rotors and have new hawk 60 pads ... Thunderhill this weekend ... Back for more |
05-30-2016, 10:21 PM | #5 | |
Drives: 2014 1le Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Niagara Falls Ontario
Posts: 174
|
Quote:
__________________
Last edited by jamestown; 05-30-2016 at 10:32 PM. |
|
05-30-2016, 11:30 PM | #6 |
Lover of Speed
Drives: 2018 ZLE Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 266
|
Having run Mid Ohio a lot, and based off your eval, I think you rode your brakes too much. So you glazed/over heated your stock pads and fluids. I would also suggest changing out your brake fluid for a higher temp fluid because stock pads and stock fluid on a 4k lb car is not going to do very well. I recommend swapping over to Motul RBF 600. I would try to bleed your calipers for now and re bed your pads in.
|
05-31-2016, 03:56 PM | #7 |
Door ding magnet
|
I think 2 things are happening. First, you should be using a brake pad specifically designed for the track. There are a LOT of varying opinions on which ones are best, but for me I've been happy with the Hawk HP+ on my stock (engine) SS automatic. They're easy to find and aren't too expensive. Faster cars and drivers probably need better pads than what I run. I also have brake ducts installed with helps a lot with heat management.
Second, you're probably slowing down too much before the turn in. That's just more heat and wear on the brakes if you're slowing down to say, 35 mph when you should be turning at 45 mph. I have a habit of doing this too. Ask your instructor next time to work with you on turn in speeds. So, with that in mind, you probably over cooked your stock brake pads. I'd take the car to a trusted mechanic and have him look at the pads and rotors and see if you need new pads or not or if you need to have the rotors resurfaced. Out of curiosity, when the dealer changed your brake fluid, what did they replace it with?
__________________
"When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting." |
05-31-2016, 06:31 PM | #8 |
BigShow
Drives: 2017 1 Camaro + Chevy Avalanche Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Tucson
Posts: 335
|
Thanks all for the comments.
Byers Chevy, south of Columbus replaced the brake fluid. I asked for a high temp fluid if they had it. I don't know what they used; the FP-Number on the ticket is M0C06001, but I suspect that's just the work code for a brake flush. They are going to check my brakes Friday. Due to personnel commitments I won't be able to go to the track again this season so I'm not going to spring for track pads. My plan for upgrading brakes is to buy a 2017 1LE at the end of the year or early in 2017. Air temps were relatively cool so the track temps had to be very friendly. Over heating brakes probably had more to do with my poor attempt at track driving. I feel that I got only got turns 1, 3, 4 and 5 (end of the back straightaway), down reasonably well, even drawing some praise from the instructor. I'm sure those are the easy turns. I never felt like I had tun 2, madness, and the carousel at all right. I braked kind of hard in Thunder valley once and my instructor freaked out. http://www.caranddriver.com/features...course-feature |
05-31-2016, 07:48 PM | #9 |
Drives: cars Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oversneeze
Posts: 4,544
|
GM doesn't sell or stock high temp fluid, saying if you have it doesn't mean you will install X, Y Z. You need to inspect your pads and flush your fluid with a DOT 4. I'm sure you boiled it and you may have overheated the pads which makes it possible to damage them.
Changing pads won't stop you from overheating your brakes due to bad habits, you need to learn from what your instructor tells you or you will repeat this scenario with whatever you upgrade to. Braking longer but softer increases heat in the system, it doesn't decrease it. You want to brake quickly and then return to cooling mode when off the brakes. Overall the v6 brakes are inadequate for track days on a 2 ton car so I wouldn't upgrade them anyways even if you planned on keeping it longer, I would upgrade the system to SS or ZL1 based upon track time anticipated. |
05-31-2016, 07:59 PM | #10 | ||
corner barstool sitter
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 6,990
|
Quote:
Braking into China Beach (T4 on the Pro circuit, T7 on the club circuit with the chicane) works the brakes hard, as you're slowing from the fastest part of the course on a downhill run for a turn that you probably weren't going through at a whole lot more than low-50's. Needing better pads is as simple as jamestown said it was. Stock street-intended pads, particularly on cars with base-level brakes and no cooling ducts, aren't built to handle the extreme temperatures that result from repeated heavy braking from high speed. A 40°F ambient isn't all that much cooler than 75°F when your pad temperatures are spiking well up into the hundreds of degrees F. Quote:
You'll need to have the pad friction surfaces inspected for signs of melting and other kinds of deterioration, and that's in addition to seeing how much friction material thickness is remaining (I generally don't go below about 1/8" in purely street driving, and most places won't let you start a track day out with less than 50% of original thickness). Check your rotors for heat checking as well, and replace them if you can catch a fingernail in anything that isn't normal circumferential scoring. Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan . . . seriously) |
||
05-31-2016, 09:19 PM | #11 |
BigShow
Drives: 2017 1 Camaro + Chevy Avalanche Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Tucson
Posts: 335
|
Thanks again guys. It will be a while before I can try your suggestions.
Last edited by BigShow1960; 06-01-2016 at 07:33 PM. |
06-01-2016, 12:03 PM | #12 | |
Drives: Race Car Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Seffner, FL
Posts: 6,226
|
Quote:
|
|
06-01-2016, 10:09 PM | #13 |
Drives: One of the baddest handling Gen 5s Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Masachusetts
Posts: 4,177
|
Tell you what. You have a V6. At least upgrade to a SS Brembo brake setup and stainless brake lines with MOtul, Castrol SRF, you can run the pads I run that also are very good on the street for our heavier cars, the Hawk HT-10s. They needed 2 sessions at LimeRock to get up to proper operating temps. Not as good as DTC 60s or up but still very good. My brakes actually feel stronger after track days.
Last edited by L99CAMA2011; 06-02-2016 at 06:11 AM. |
06-03-2016, 08:47 PM | #14 |
Team 913
Drives: '14 ZL1, '15 Jeep GC, ‘22 Ram 2500 Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: USA, Central CA
Posts: 1,119
|
Just put dtc 60s on my zl1 couple days ago... Holy brake dust haha... Burnished them in an my wheel looked like they had 20k mi on them haha... Made a ton noise slow speed braking... Until I put grease on them and the rear plates from my stock brakes...
About to track next two days... Most dust I've ever seen after 10mi of driving... Definitely don't street them... And I run motul 660 with goodridge SS lines |
|
|
|
|