[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

http://www.karpower.com/Marketing/index.aspx



Nothing fishy about it. Mustang has always been the rental queen. At least 25% every year go to rental. Challenger is second and gaining lately. Camaro has always been the lowest of the three to rental.

Forgive us, but none here are paying for karpower.

Show us the data.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Forgive us, but none here are paying for karpower.

Show us the data.

I think he already did. You think he just made it up or is lying?

All fun info, but meaningless. All this anxiety over sales, for better or worse is having Zero effect on anything. Panic over the need to expand it's appeal, change it's design, price, etc., etc., is all based on zero facts and mere fantasy expertise.

The Camaro is what it is.

[sprtplt]

Originally Posted by ssrs2lt

7000 plus a month is sales is great. Need to sustain it..

It most certainly is not. Far below the minimum acceptable for what is supposed to be a high volume model.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by sprtplt

It most certainly is not. Far below the minimum acceptable for what is supposed to be a high volume model.

None of these cars are high volume models. During the 5th gen years only 6 times did either the Mustang or Camaro sell 10K or more units. 7K is a solid number for even during those years. The Mustang averages about 5% or less of Ford's sales each month. That is the definition of low volume model.

[camaro5]

Originally Posted by 90503

No matter what good news there may be for Camaro, someone will always want to present it as a dark cloud in front of a silver lining....To some here, the only good news, is bad news ....(It fits their doom and gloom narrative better that way).....

P.S. Don't take it personally.

Originally Posted by Michigan1LTRS

Exactly!! Their glass is always half empty and if they see someone with a glass half full they try to knock it over. They cant help themselves.

Positive vibes back to you guys! Keep it up

Originally Posted by DeliveryMan

What is impressive is the numbers that Dodge (FCA) is still able to sell of that fat wagon-assed, oversized Challenger- which is being manufactured on that ancient platform.
Really amazing.

Marketing, marketing, marketing - yes, amazing success.

Originally Posted by germanicus

So what are those profit margins? Do you know?

Or are you relying on GM's Marketing department for that information....


Dealing in facts, GM has grossly over estimated the demand for the car.
Last Year, they added a third shift, and dealer stock shot up to almost record breaking levels. There are currently over 29,000 new Camaros sitting on lots (more than last month). This is a disaster for them. That stock costs money sitting around. For the dealers and for gm over the future.

Its not difficult. What are sales for the year to date? What is current stock on lots? So far, Camaro is the lowest selling of the Pony car trio, and has by far, the highest current stock on lots (there are almost double the amount of Camaros on lots than Challengers). Spin it however you want.

Demand for ALL cars is tumbling.

Electric motors are now replacing that roaring V8.

Watch history unfold before your eyes, get a fun car now, before they are gone forever.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Missing one key point................how much profit.

All of those things lead to higher ATP (eliminated with the 20% tag), which can be awesome. And yes, selling more SSs with more content always helps.

As we've discussed countless times, we don't know GM's total investment, piece cost or labor to determine the price of each Camaro. Further we don't know the Contribution Margin on the Camaro, meaning how much of GM's overhead does the Camaro get to help pay (pensions, healthcare, etc.), so we have no idea how many Camaros GM needs to sell to be profitable.

Whenever you run a business case, you have to know the total costs to develop the product and then you can figure out how many you need to sell at what price to make money.

If it costs $100,000,000 to develop the Camaro and GM sells one to Rick Hendrick for $100,001,000, I made $1,000. Now the question is would you invest $100,000,000 to make $1,000? No you wouldn't.

So unless you have that level of detail, the comments from GM you posted are only favorable things. They do not suggest how much GM makes on a Camaro or if they even make money on a Camaro.

Not trying to be a db on this, you just haven't shown the profitability or ROIC that GM is driving business decisions on.

Also keep in mind, Opel made outstanding products. They weren't making money. GM sold them at a loss to Peugot.

All good points 3.

Why don't we just "hope" they keep making the Camaro at least through the 7th gen.

btw - GM actually killed the Corvette at the end of the C4 run. They'll kill any model.

Luckily this motorhead Russ McLean refused to let it die.

With the fourth-generation Corvette’s stability ensured, McLean believed his next task was to focus on developing the C5, which GM had already approved.

However, a management change brought with it a new order from GM’s board of directors: Stop development on the Corvette and let it sunset.

For somebody like McLean, who had bought a 1960 Corvette in 1962 and who believed in the Corvette, he couldn’t accept that order. So he ignored it.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2015/1...-in-the-1990s/

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

2017 Retail ATP's YTD (KBB KarPower)
Camaro: 38,861
Challenger: 36,958
Mustang: 35,755



2017 Fleet Sale % YTD
Camaro: 2%
Challenger: 36%
Mustang: 31%

When you then look at retail sales YTD, the Mustang maintains a narrow lead.

2017 Retail Sales YTD
Mustang: 15,501
Camaro: 14,992
Challenger: 10,064

Wow! Thanks for providing hard numbers.

Reality check: Camaro and Mustang are neck and neck in retail sales, and crusty Challenger way back in third.

Rental car anyone? We got Mustangs and Challengers.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Now that's interesting indeed.




It has been, at least thru March. 20% off deals are not hard to come by for '16 and '17s in certain regions. As an example almost every Challenger at my local dealer has $3-6K off depending on MSRP.

Changes the entire perspective

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

http://www.karpower.com/Marketing/index.aspx



Nothing fishy about it. Mustang has always been the rental queen. At least 25% every year go to rental. Challenger is second and gaining lately. Camaro has always been the lowest of the three to rental.

More profitable, neck and neck sales race (retail), better quality than FCA or Ford.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by 90503

I think he already did. You think he just made it up or is lying?

All fun info, but meaningless. All this anxiety over sales, for better or worse is having Zero effect on anything. Panic over the need to expand it's appeal, change it's design, price, etc., etc., is all based on zero facts and mere fantasy expertise.

The Camaro is what it is.

All I see is what I can assume to be a paraphrase. Did he make it up? I certainly can't tell, can you? Where does the data come from? Where did KBB get the data? All I have is a link to a paid website. How is it that this data doesn't exist anywhere else?

Can we get a screenshot of the data? Any information they publish should have sources cited on how their data was collected. What is it?

Do I really care if the number truly is 30%? Nahh, doesn't bother me. Without sources we can see however, those numbers are meaningless.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by camaro5

More profitable, neck and neck sales race (retail), better quality than FCA or Ford.

Ehh, show me the profit margins for each. How do you know which is more profitable?

Better quality? Arguable to say the least.

Funny, out of all the rental pics...you show the one next to the Maserati. If you're going to put it down, you need to at least show it next to an econbox!

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Forgive us, but none here are paying for karpower.

Show us the data.

He already did. This must be thePill's offspring.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

He already did. This must be thePill's offspring.

Maybe I missed it. Can you re-post the link that doesn't require payment? I sure as hell can't find one.....or should I say, Mustang Fanboy sure as hell can't find one lol.

[Michigan1LTRS]

You seem to doubt the numbers, so why don't you post some facts that dispute his findings. Otherwise give it a rest. This is a Camaro site.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by Michigan1LTRS

You seem to doubt the numbers, so why don't you post some facts that dispute his findings. Otherwise give it a rest. This is a Camaro site.

I can't, there are no sources available. The pay source he cites seems to be the only one available in the interwebs.

You are missing my point a bit. If this was posted on any other forum, I would be scruitinizing it the same. Here is my point...

Take a look at what I found on the same site....

2017 Retail ATP's YTD (KBB KarPower)
Camaro: 38,861
Challenger: 36,958
Mustang: 35,755

2017 Fleet Sale % YTD
Camaro: 31%
Challenger: 36%
Mustang: 2%

2017 Retail Sales YTD
Mustang: 15,501
Camaro: 14,992
Challenger: 10,064

Here i my source, try to debunk it.

http://www.karpower.com/Marketing/index.aspx

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Ehh, show me the profit margins for each. How do you know which is more profitable?

Better quality? Arguable to say the least.

Funny, out of all the rental pics...you show the one next to the Maserati. If you're going to put it down, you need to at least show it next to an econbox!

Not really. Powertrain and feature/accessory dependability are behind.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Not really. Powertrain and feature/accessory dependability are behind.

I thought we were talking about mustangs and camaros. According to JDpower

Powertrain Quality - Design Tie
Overall Quality - Mechanical Camaro
Powertrain Quality - Mechanical Mustang
Body & Interior Quality - Design Mustang
Features & Accessories Quality - Design Mustang
Overall Quality Tie
Features & Accessories Quality - Mechanical Camaro
Body & Interior Quality - Mechanical Camaro
Overall Quality - Design Mustang

Looks fairly even to me.

http://www.jdpower.com/cars/Ford/Mustang/2016
http://www.jdpower.com/cars/Chevrolet/Camaro/2016

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Here i my source, try to debunk it.

http://www.karpower.com/Marketing/index.aspx

Nice try.

Those figures (the real ones that MEDISIN posted), jive with what we've been hearing for over a year. For the record, I am just as interested in reading it from the source direct, as you seem to be...but since I can't...I take it for what it's worth...

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Nothing fishy about it. Mustang has always been the rental queen. At least 25% every year go to rental. Challenger is second and gaining lately. Camaro has always been the lowest of the three to rental.

They even developed a Hertz special edition Mustang and hung it on the wall at 2016 NYIAS.