Thinking pretty hard today about improvements...

Jason@JacFab · 07-09-2016, 10:04 PM

I dug into the car a little today, below are some random pictures and thoughts as I continue to move forward with modifying the car...

Bigger better flowing intercooler. This thing has got to be a hindrance to the flow. Such a thin, tall little thing...

Looking at these pics, the AC condenser is in front... Should the intercooler be put in front so it gets the best air at all times for max performance? Or leave the condenser in front because it only gets hot when the AC is turned on and you typically won't have the AC on when maximum performance is needed.

The other picture shows the horns the clearance between the horns and the front of the condenser. So maintaining the same spacing between the condenser/intercooler/radiator, it looks like you could go about 1.25"-1.5" thicker on the intercooler without changing the spacing.

If you reduce the spacing between everything, you could probably squeeze up to 2-2.25" thicker.

Of course all of the mounts will have to be re-engineered.

Then there is the cold air intake front that has absolutely exploded in the last week with like 3-5 different companies saying they are making one, prototyping, or have one coming soon... Which is great, BUT... In the grand scope of things, a cold air intakes first job is to reduce air intake temps, and typically the second purpose is to increase airflow.

That said, so far, those companies that have released "claimed hp gains", the gains appear MASSIVE. Like 20-30hp. Which is great if it's true... But seems highly unlikely, in theory.

Here's some pictures of the stock air intake stuff in the car

The stock box has a big ol inlet.

Stock box removed.

This is what that box inlet mates up against. The inlet boot (at least that's what I'm going to call it) in the car is rubber and looks to completely seal from the engine area... One thing I can say is that it looks like my car was put together on a Friday because my box to boot seal was less than perfect, part of the box inlet was just smashed into the seal causing a "hot air leak"

That said, when I log intake air temp vs ambient in HP Tuners I see great numbers. At speed IAT vs AMB is within 2-4 degrees... That's what your "favorite 5th gen cai" CLAIMS.... So if we're already getting cold air, the MASSIVE gains must be coming from either additional airflow or MAF sensor reading manipulation or both.

Now, the factory box and seal setup is leaps and bounds better than the 5th gen. The 6th gen actually gets cold air. So I'm leaning towards air flow increase and/or MAF manipulation.

I'm a big fan of flow... So I started looking real hard at what could possibly be done... I don't know that this is the answer, but I'm going to try it...

(Insert gratuitous CAI teaser picture below)

Stay tuned for updates...

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Ashium · 07-09-2016, 10:45 PM

Holy crap, that's the intercooler? You should flow test it! It looks pretty worthless though. Winging it, I'd say 4.5" thick front mount! If I had the resources to test, I'd just see how good or bad the stock unit is, if it flows well, 300+CFM? See how well it cools.. Maybe look into adding a air to water cooler after it. Idk it's kind of tricky to find that point of optimum efficiency, without hampering radiator or condenser, performance.

Jason@JacFab · 07-10-2016, 12:32 AM

The intercooler is the one in the center, just to clarify. It's better than nothing, but I think it's not quite optimal.

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rorymick · 07-10-2016, 09:09 PM

Meth/ water injection is a godsend for Turbo engines as well...

My last turbo v8 had a cone air filter diretly on the turbo inlet. Right beside the engine and sucking in a ton of heat.

However i had a rather large intercooler right after the grill. And also was spraying methanol into the throttle body.

If I could get a little tube with the maf sensor mounting screws and the pcv hose attachment on it. Id try running a cone filter right off the turbo.

I do however like the engineering in the stock air box. I dislike the stock tube very much!

As far as performance...after the turbo (charge pipes, intercooler, throttle body) are what matters in this case.

Call me a shooter but I'm looking for more turbo sound from the intake and turbo. You think guys put exhaust on their car for performance? Its more likely for a sound they're looking for!

SOMEONE ENGINEER A BOV KIT FOR THESE THINGS!

rorymick · 07-10-2016, 09:16 PM

And yes yes I know we've got quite a different system for the turbo recirc valve or whatever its called. Just wish we could release the turbo pressure through a bov. Its all been tried before in the ATS platform. So if it isnt out already. Theres a reason why.

Nate... · 07-29-2016, 09:46 AM

I would be interested in seeing IAT vs. ambient logs if you record data. Do you know where the car has air temp sensors located? Pre-IC? Post-IC? MAF?

Cymaro · 07-29-2016, 08:41 PM

Hey Jac do you have the heavy duty cooling package? I was wondering what that "extra capacity cooling" and "When ordered with the available 2.0L Turbo engine, also includes an auxiliary engine coolant cooler" would look like/ amount of space it would take up in the area your looking for intercooling

Cymaro · 07-29-2016, 08:42 PM

I meant Jason lol

Nate... · 07-30-2016, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oemtech

Not sure where the AIR Temp sensor that measures the Ambient Air Temp (outside air). But, there are 2 IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensors. The MAF/IAT has one and the MAP/MAT has one. I have monitored them on my Cadillac ATS. With my DIY Air Intake pipe with heat wrap the MAF/IAT hwy temps are only 1° or 2° above the AAT. The MAP/MAT temps are 8° to 10° above AAT.

That's good. That means we can measure the temperature delta across the intercooler with the IAT and MAT temps. And it also sounds like there isn't much need for a CAI from your data? (With only a 1-2 degree delta)

Jason@JacFab · 07-30-2016, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymaro

Hey Jac do you have the heavy duty cooling package? I was wondering what that "extra capacity cooling" and "When ordered with the available 2.0L Turbo engine, also includes an auxiliary engine coolant cooler" would look like/ amount of space it would take up in the area your looking for intercooling

I do not have the heavy duty cooling package. I'm not 100% certain, but I think the aux cooling package has one or possibly two smaller radiators off the the side by the fog lights. I'd have to do some research, but in theory if I'm right, the aux cooling package shouldn't effect the available intercooler space.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate...

That's good. That means we can measure the temperature delta across the intercooler with the IAT and MAT temps. And it also sounds like there isn't much need for a CAI from your data? (With only a 1-2 degree delta)

So far, the only benefit I can see from a cold air intake would be increased
Airflow and/or possibly MAF sensor manipulation. The stock airbox does very well in supplying the engine with cool air, I've logged the same IAT of being within 1-2 degrees of ambient while moving.

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Nate... · 08-02-2016, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason@JacFab

...So far, the only benefit I can see from a cold air intake would be increased
Airflow and/or possibly MAF sensor manipulation. The stock airbox does very well in supplying the engine with cool air, I've logged the same IAT of being within 1-2 degrees of ambient while moving.

When you say MAF sensor manipulation are you referring to location? Did you need to do a MAF calibration when you took out the baffle?

Jason@JacFab · 08-02-2016, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate...

When you say MAF sensor manipulation are you referring to location? Did you need to do a MAF calibration when you took out the baffle?

Location of the MAF, straitness, placement in proximity to a bend or turbulence, they can all change exactly how much air the MAF sensor actually reads.

I never ran my car with the baffle removed because it actually makes the stock air tube flow less air, I assume by creating turbulence of a big open "can".

RedonBlackRS · 08-02-2016, 02:50 PM

[QUOTE=Jason@JacFab;9231376]I do not have the heavy duty cooling package. I'm not 100% certain, but I think the aux cooling package has one or possibly two smaller radiators off the the side by the fog lights. I'd have to do some research, but in theory if I'm right, the aux cooling package shouldn't effect the available intercooler space.

I have the Heavy Duty Cooling & Brake Package, and you're right.
There's a radiator in that area on each side with vents leading out into the wheelwells. Also, there's a horizontally mounted oil cooler just ahead of the standard heat exchanger cluster.
I've never seen more than 192 degrees for both oil & coolant, 145 for the trans; and that's with driving 'spiritedly' on 100 degree, humid days.

07-09-2016, 10:04 PM	#1
Jason@JacFab Drives: 2016 1LT RS Camaro; 72 Chevelle Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Point, OR Posts: 5,688 View My Garage	Thinking pretty hard today about improvements... I dug into the car a little today, below are some random pictures and thoughts as I continue to move forward with modifying the car... Bigger better flowing intercooler. This thing has got to be a hindrance to the flow. Such a thin, tall little thing... Looking at these pics, the AC condenser is in front... Should the intercooler be put in front so it gets the best air at all times for max performance? Or leave the condenser in front because it only gets hot when the AC is turned on and you typically won't have the AC on when maximum performance is needed. The other picture shows the horns the clearance between the horns and the front of the condenser. So maintaining the same spacing between the condenser/intercooler/radiator, it looks like you could go about 1.25"-1.5" thicker on the intercooler without changing the spacing. If you reduce the spacing between everything, you could probably squeeze up to 2-2.25" thicker. Of course all of the mounts will have to be re-engineered. Then there is the cold air intake front that has absolutely exploded in the last week with like 3-5 different companies saying they are making one, prototyping, or have one coming soon... Which is great, BUT... In the grand scope of things, a cold air intakes first job is to reduce air intake temps, and typically the second purpose is to increase airflow. That said, so far, those companies that have released "claimed hp gains", the gains appear MASSIVE. Like 20-30hp. Which is great if it's true... But seems highly unlikely, in theory. Here's some pictures of the stock air intake stuff in the car The stock box has a big ol inlet. Stock box removed. This is what that box inlet mates up against. The inlet boot (at least that's what I'm going to call it) in the car is rubber and looks to completely seal from the engine area... One thing I can say is that it looks like my car was put together on a Friday because my box to boot seal was less than perfect, part of the box inlet was just smashed into the seal causing a "hot air leak" That said, when I log intake air temp vs ambient in HP Tuners I see great numbers. At speed IAT vs AMB is within 2-4 degrees... That's what your "favorite 5th gen cai" CLAIMS.... So if we're already getting cold air, the MASSIVE gains must be coming from either additional airflow or MAF sensor reading manipulation or both. Now, the factory box and seal setup is leaps and bounds better than the 5th gen. The 6th gen actually gets cold air. So I'm leaning towards air flow increase and/or MAF manipulation. I'm a big fan of flow... So I started looking real hard at what could possibly be done... I don't know that this is the answer, but I'm going to try it... (Insert gratuitous CAI teaser picture below) Stay tuned for updates... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last edited by Jason@JacFab; 07-10-2016 at 07:06 AM.

07-10-2016, 09:09 PM	#4
rorymick Drives: 2016 Camaro RS 1LT 2.0L Turbo Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Alberta Canada Posts: 349	Meth/ water injection is a godsend for Turbo engines as well... My last turbo v8 had a cone air filter diretly on the turbo inlet. Right beside the engine and sucking in a ton of heat. However i had a rather large intercooler right after the grill. And also was spraying methanol into the throttle body. If I could get a little tube with the maf sensor mounting screws and the pcv hose attachment on it. Id try running a cone filter right off the turbo. I do however like the engineering in the stock air box. I dislike the stock tube very much! As far as performance...after the turbo (charge pipes, intercooler, throttle body) are what matters in this case. Call me a shooter but I'm looking for more turbo sound from the intake and turbo. You think guys put exhaust on their car for performance? Its more likely for a sound they're looking for! SOMEONE ENGINEER A BOV KIT FOR THESE THINGS! __________________ '16 1LT 2.0T RS - Catless DP, Intake, Tune/ Eibach springs FE3 shocks/ BMR front bar FE4 rear bar/ Xpel'd front end, CP Reload sealed/ Radenso Pro M.

07-10-2016, 09:16 PM	#5
rorymick Drives: 2016 Camaro RS 1LT 2.0L Turbo Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Alberta Canada Posts: 349	And yes yes I know we've got quite a different system for the turbo recirc valve or whatever its called. Just wish we could release the turbo pressure through a bov. Its all been tried before in the ATS platform. So if it isnt out already. Theres a reason why. __________________ '16 1LT 2.0T RS - Catless DP, Intake, Tune/ Eibach springs FE3 shocks/ BMR front bar FE4 rear bar/ Xpel'd front end, CP Reload sealed/ Radenso Pro M.

07-29-2016, 09:46 AM	#6
Nate... Drives: 2016 Camaro LTG Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 316	I would be interested in seeing IAT vs. ambient logs if you record data. Do you know where the car has air temp sensors located? Pre-IC? Post-IC? MAF? __________________ 2016 LTG Camaro in Hyper Blue with MRT V3 Catback and Brembo SS Brakes.

07-09-2016, 10:45 PM	#2
Ashium Drives: Camaro 2.0t, 300zx TT, LSTT Mustang Join Date: May 2016 Location: Miami Fl Posts: 109	Holy crap, that's the intercooler? You should flow test it! It looks pretty worthless though. Winging it, I'd say 4.5" thick front mount! If I had the resources to test, I'd just see how good or bad the stock unit is, if it flows well, 300+CFM? See how well it cools.. Maybe look into adding a air to water cooler after it. Idk it's kind of tricky to find that point of optimum efficiency, without hampering radiator or condenser, performance.

07-10-2016, 12:32 AM	#3
Jason@JacFab Drives: 2016 1LT RS Camaro; 72 Chevelle Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Point, OR Posts: 5,688 View My Garage	The intercooler is the one in the center, just to clarify. It's better than nothing, but I think it's not quite optimal. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

07-29-2016, 08:41 PM	#7
Cymaro Drives: 2010 Camaro LT2/RS Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Ames, IA Posts: 248	Hey Jac do you have the heavy duty cooling package? I was wondering what that "extra capacity cooling" and "When ordered with the available 2.0L Turbo engine, also includes an auxiliary engine coolant cooler" would look like/ amount of space it would take up in the area your looking for intercooling

07-29-2016, 08:42 PM	#8
Cymaro Drives: 2010 Camaro LT2/RS Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Ames, IA Posts: 248	I meant Jason lol

08-02-2016, 02:50 PM	#13
RedonBlackRS Drives: 1LT RS 2.0T 8A HD Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: McHenry, IL Posts: 239	[QUOTE=Jason@JacFab;9231376]I do not have the heavy duty cooling package. I'm not 100% certain, but I think the aux cooling package has one or possibly two smaller radiators off the the side by the fog lights. I'd have to do some research, but in theory if I'm right, the aux cooling package shouldn't effect the available intercooler space. I have the Heavy Duty Cooling & Brake Package, and you're right. There's a radiator in that area on each side with vents leading out into the wheelwells. Also, there's a horizontally mounted oil cooler just ahead of the standard heat exchanger cluster. I've never seen more than 192 degrees for both oil & coolant, 145 for the trans; and that's with driving 'spiritedly' on 100 degree, humid days.

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