[Jeb114]

Originally Posted by MBS

Well let me ask you this then please.
Would owners be able to have a tune done on their 6th gen Camaros or would Gm prohibit it .? That after all is pretty big for those wanting to eliminate the government requirements that you have to sustain to , and allow us enthusiasts to get the extra power left on the table .

I am sure Chevy will continue there stand "enter the ECM and change the tune" void the warranty immediately.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by MBS

Well let me ask you this then please.
Would owners be able to have a tune done on their 6th gen Camaros or would Gm prohibit it .? That after all is pretty big for those wanting to eliminate the government requirements that you have to sustain to , and allow us enthusiasts to get the extra power left on the table .

LOL you sound like you think aftermarket calibrations are somehow an improvement over the OEM.

All a recalibration does is change priorities around. GM is balancing durability, hot and cold weather performance, FE, emissions all to get the best overall package. If you don't care about durability then of course you can make more HP. OEMs spend years of dyno and prototype testing assuring that an engine will start and perform and meet emissions at 12,000 feet and -40 all the way to Death Valley at well over 100 degrees. And two weeks after launch you think an aftermarket guy considered and tested for all of that? Of course not. So this where the copyright issue comes in to play. Taking OEM programming and modifying it and then selling that for a profit.

GM already prohibits modifying the PCM by voiding the power train warranty if you do.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by newb

With that being said, As cars move towards autonomous operation, there has to be some types of checks in place to prevent tampering with the associated computer systems. And you can say what you want about autonomous cars, but its coming. It may not be in the immediate future, but its coming quickly.

I'll never own any car that drives itself. that's all I am saying about it.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Number 3

GM already prohibits modifying the PCM by voiding the power train warranty if you do.

Don't that is accurate. They could void the warranty on the PCM directly or if they prove your tune caused a part to fail then void that, but they can't say your tune caused the water pump to leak or something obvious like that.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Don't that is accurate. They could void the warranty on the PCM directly or if they prove your tune caused a part to fail then void that, but they can't say your tune caused the water pump to leak or something obvious like that.

It clearly states a modification to to ECU/PCM voids your Powertrain warranty. They have to prove nothing. It's a condition of the warranty.

If the work being done requires your dealer to submit the snapshot for warranty approval you would be SOL. Not sure if a water pump or hose falls into that classification.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Number 3

It clearly states a modification to to ECU/PCM voids your Powertrain warranty. They have to prove nothing. It's a condition of the warranty.

If the work being done requires your dealer to submit the snapshot for warranty approval you would be SOL. Not sure if a water pump or hose falls into that classification.

Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act says otherwise. Manufactures can put what they want in the manual, does mean it will hold up in court. All manufactures say modifying your PCM/ECU will void the warranty. Yet there are thousands of tuners doing it and millions of consumers who buy them. The established precedent is if you modify/replace a part or if that part caused the failure of another, that part can no longer be considered in warranty. Prime example exhaust work. How many powertrain warranties would be void from catback exhausts installs?

Now is it worth the hassle, that's another story. There are definitely horror stories out there of people going months without their car and long legal battles.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act says otherwise. Manufactures can put what they want in the manual, does mean it will hold up in court. All manufactures say modifying your PCM/ECU will void the warranty. Yet there are thousands of tuners doing it and millions of consumers who buy them. The established precedent is if you modify/replace a part or if that part caused the failure of another, that part can no longer be considered in warranty. Prime example exhaust work. How many powertrain warranties would be void from catback exhausts installs?

Now is it worth the hassle, that's another story. There are definitely horror stories out there of people going months without their car and long legal battles.

If you modify the ecu in any way, your powertrain warranty is void. no if's, and's, or buts about it. You are talking about if you modify one part, and another part of your car breaks. for instance, you put on an aftermarket intake, and your power windows don't work anymore. Then the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act would take affect. If you tune your car and you get any kind of defect from your powertrain, it won't be covered under warranty anymore. Even if the tune had nothing to do with the powertrain defect. why? because the ecu is part of what makes the powertrain do what it's supposed to do. any modification to that, and bye-bye warranty.

also, the people that tune their cars, are usually full aware they are tossing their warranty out the window, but just don't care.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

If you modify the ecu in any way, your powertrain warranty is void. no if's, and's, or buts about it. You are talking about if you modify one part, and another part of your car breaks. for instance, you put on an aftermarket intake, and your power windows don't work anymore. Then the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act would take affect. If you tune your car and you get any kind of defect from your powertrain, it won't be covered under warranty anymore. Even if the tune had nothing to do with the powertrain defect. why? because the ecu is part of what makes the powertrain do what it's supposed to do. any modification to that, and bye-bye warranty.

also, the people that tune their cars, are usually full aware they are tossing their warranty out the window, but just don't care.

The law is not written that way. I'm not saying they can't deny a repair that they blame is related to a tune the cause of a failure you are reporting. That certainly is within their ability. But if say I come in for a standard service (oil change) and they happen to scan the car and determine the car is tuned, they cannot summarily void my entire powertrain warranty. If a failure is proven to be a defect like my example of water pump leak, they are liable for the repair and any other repairs not directly/suspected to be related to a PCM tune.

Now if I kill the transmission by disabling torque management or something, they can certainly void the repair and I would have to prove it was not caused by my modification and would be unlikely to win. But warranties cannot be summarily dismissed in entirety.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

The law is not written that way. I'm not saying they can't deny a repair that they blame is related to a tune the cause of a failure you are reporting. That certainly is within their ability. But if say I come in for a standard service (oil change) and they happen to scan the car and determine the car is tuned, they cannot summarily void my entire powertrain warranty. If a failure is proven to be a defect like my example of water pump leak, they are liable for the repair and any other repairs not directly/suspected to be related to a PCM tune.

Actually, I believe they can. If the PCM is modified, the dealership will have no idea what was done to the car. They will just know that it was changed, and what it's doing now. They have no way of knowing how much you tuned the PCM before you got there. Just that it was tuned. That would cause for an immediate warranty loss on the powertrain. Maybe they won't drop the warranty on the spot, but it's pretty much gone, if you ever come back with a warranty issue, and they have taken notes that the pcm on that car was changed. For instance, your water pump leak, and the pcm was changed. they don't know if the tune was forcing the water pump to work double time, but there is certainly enough proof with a tuned pcm, to void the powertrain warranty.

[PoorMansCamaro]

another example, if you swap out your intake filter with an aftermarket (that's not GM approved), but leave the rest of the intake stock, the whole intake system will be void. at least that would be my understanding.

[SuperSound]

Let me give you a first hand example. My previous car had an APR tune which added quite a bit of power over stock. I had the tune for almost 30k miles and the dealer techs knew it because we had talked about it in the past. VW has the same policy as GM about ECU tuning. At 43k I started getting a service light. I looked up the code and it was due to a clogged intake valves. I did some searching and found a TSB (technical service bulletin) regarding the issue was an actual defect from the factory and would require a new intake manifold. I also had a CAI on the car. I went to the dealer, they checked the logs, started to act like they would charge for it then when they saw the TSB immediately advised it would be covered. Point in case, defects trump everything if the warranty is in place. The dealer could have easily said my CAI or tune resulted in the issue, but I could prove legally that the issue occurred in factory cars as well due to the TSB.

I think bottom line we can look at this way, the majority of people who have tunes will never see/report an issue to a dealer caused by a tune. If they do, there is a definite chance of the dealer not honoring the repair warranty, but that dealer will have to provide a written reason as to why they are denying the claim. This could be appealed if you can prove your modifications are not the cause of your claim. But any modification of a vehicle is treated the same way, there is no wording in the law to grant ECUs/PCMs special circumstances. The manufactures simply state what they do because they want to ensure they are covered, because of the wide range of impacts tuning can cause to the powertrain.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Let me give you a first hand example. My previous car had an APR tune which added quite a bit of power over stock. I had the tune for almost 30k miles and the dealer techs knew it because we had talked about it in the past. VW has the same policy as GM about ECU tuning. At 43k I started getting a service light. I looked up the code and it was due to a clogged intake valves. I did some searching and found a TSB (technical service bulletin) regarding the issue was an actual defect from the factory and would require a new intake manifold. I also had a CAI on the car. I went to the dealer, they checked the logs, started to act like they would charge for it then when they saw the TSB immediately advised it would be covered. Point in case, defects trump everything if the warranty is in place. The dealer could have easily said my CAI or tune resulted in the issue, but I could prove legally that the issue occurred in factory cars as well due to the TSB.

I think bottom line we can look at this way, the majority of people who have tunes will never see/report an issue to a dealer caused by a tune. If they do, there is a definite chance of the dealer not honoring the repair warranty, but that dealer will have to provide a written reason as to why they are denying the claim. This could be appealed if you can prove your modifications are not the cause of your claim. But any modification of a vehicle is treated the same way, there is no wording in the law to grant ECUs/PCMs special circumstances. The manufactures simply state what they do because they want to ensure they are covered, because of the wide range of impacts tuning can cause to the powertrain.

Just to be clear, their written reason will be the clearly stated warranty policy. Again do not confuse MM with this. The OEM gets to state the conditions of the warranty and GM says the condition is you dont modify the PCM. MM does not require an OEM offer a warranty, nor does it prevent that warranty from having limitations. Hence the Limited Powertrain Warrant.

So it doesn't matter what you prove it matters what GM states the warranty policy is.

[Angrybird 12]

The MM act was supposed to protect owners from having to use the manufacturers factory replacement parts instead of using aftermarket replacement parts. What that means is like you can use a Fram oil or air filter instead of the GM version and they cannot deny warranty coverage in case you have a oil related failure unless they can prove the part you used was the cause of the failure.
It was never intended to be used for performance parts but only replacement parts, but since those were not specifically excluded performance parts manufacturers say their parts are covered by the MM act. It's a gray area in my opinion on the performance parts aspect and it much easier on the manufacturers part to deny coverage due to performance parts.
Anyway they can only deny coverage for the related parts that are affected by the performance part. If you have a supercharger installed they cannot deny coverage for a bad power window motor, or a faulty heated seat because they can not be affected by the supercharger.

[MBS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

LOL you sound like you think aftermarket calibrations are somehow an improvement over the OEM.

All a recalibration does is change priorities around. GM is balancing durability, hot and cold weather performance, FE, emissions all to get the best overall package. If you don't care about durability then of course you can make more HP. OEMs spend years of dyno and prototype testing assuring that an engine will start and perform and meet emissions at 12,000 feet and -40 all the way to Death Valley at well over 100 degrees. And two weeks after launch you think an aftermarket guy considered and tested for all of that? Of course not. So this where the copyright issue comes in to play. Taking OEM programming and modifying it and then selling that for a profit.

GM already prohibits modifying the PCM by voiding the power train warranty if you do.

What is the "LOL" bit about ? I thought we would be more civil with each other ? My question to the main man was- will a car owner be able to do whatever he wants with a tune or will it be nearly impossible . Gm has government regulations and it is known that some torque and horsepower is left on the table , As a owner of a vehicle that you paid for you ought to have a right to do with whatever you want , Being locked out by cryptic codes or what not is BS to me , Here is what the article is stating
"This means if you want to modify your car by getting your ECU flashed to make changes to, say, increase horsepower, change throttle response, or whatever, you’re violating the law, even if you don’t touch any of the safety or security code in the car’s computers. "
This whole thing is wrong in so many ways, and if the automakers are allowed to restrict owner access to their own cars — whether they themselves tinker or repair them or not — a cascade of unfortunate effects will follow. Independent repair shops will have it especially rough, becoming vulnerable to manufacturer lawsuits if they attempt to repair a car by accessing the ‘restricted’ code or even just connecting to the ECU.
I’m a firm believer that if you can’t open it, you don’t really own it. I believe in things like Mister Jalopy’s Maker’s Bill of Rights, and I firmly believe that everyone who owns a car has the right to work on their car.

If a manufacturer wants to void a warranty, fine. That’s the risk we take. If they want to make safety and emissions modifications harder to do — but still accessible for independent repair shops to work with — okay. Hell, if they even want to stop selling cars entirely and just lease cars with the understanding that the driver doesn’t truly own the vehicle, they’re free to do that, too.

But if I buy a car, I should always be free to fix or modify that car, even if it’s a terrible idea that gets me 20 HP and 11 MPG. It doesn’t matter — it’s my car.
The last thing we really need is another "Law" about this