Finally...twin turbos for my LFX - Page 88 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

alice · 10-01-2016, 06:44 AM

In my opinion, knowing you have a Elite catch can installed, my guess is that the oil must be coming from a Turbo. Remove the discharge pipe from the turbos at the compressor and see if you find any oil residue. If so, must be a turbo oil leak. As you know, I have twin, rear mounted turbos and I check all piping at various intervals and everything is bone dry, at the compressors, inlet and outlet of intercooler, after MAF sensor and at the inlet of the throttle body.

JantzenOKC · 10-01-2016, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alice

In my opinion, knowing you have a Elite catch can installed, my guess is that the oil must be coming from a Turbo. Remove the discharge pipe from the turbos at the compressor and see if you find any oil residue. If so, must be a turbo oil leak. As you know, I have twin, rear mounted turbos and I check all piping at various intervals and everything is bone dry, at the compressors, inlet and outlet of intercooler, after MAF sensor and at the inlet of the throttle body.

Yeah you might be right. Might be resealing the turbos this winter. I cleaned it all up and took the evac off my turbo inlet and ran it to a simple open breather can to see if that changes it. On my first run last night it actually blew the clean side separator off the oil fill and blew oil out everywhere. I was able to tie a tag around it and zip tied it so i could keep racing. There is obviously WAY too much crankcase pressure for that tiny orifice to keep up with. I might need to rethink some things on that.

alice · 10-01-2016, 07:26 AM

I would like to raise a concern with the location of the IAT sensor. As you know, no matter how good or how many catch cans you have on a project, it is impossible to catch all the oil that eventually goes back into the intake manifold. I have (2) Elites on my TT LLT and they get most all the oil but unfortunately, still a very small amount gets by as oil mist. Another important point in our discussion is that the LLT and the LFX engines run higher compression ratios and surprisingly, due to extremely precise ability to control engine parameters with today's technology, turbocharging these engines push them to critical limits. Even at 10 to 1 CR, as Jantzens. All the data inputs must be accurate at all times for reliability and keeping the engine out of self destruct detonation. I want to discuss several points.

First, if the IAT is in the MAF, as GM has provided, no oil can get onto the thermistor(except for a bad turbo compressor seal) that could upset the data from that sensor, thus causing the ECU to misinterpret and convert the information into a faulty output to critical controls. I considered breaking out the IAT on my project but after seeing first hand, the small amount of oil that still makes it to the intake, I decided not to. The IAT sensor has a huge effect on other functions, mainly timing and injection pulse width and if ANY oil gets to this sensor, it may fail to properly send accurate data to the ECU, thus a potential problem and more importantly, possible erratic behavior.

Secondly, with water/meth injection systems, the assumption of true air temperature in the mixed air stream/velocity within the manifold may or may not be accurate due to the wet air hitting the IAT in a turbulent manner (intake pulses and changes in direction) thus possible causing the IAT to not react correctly by design.

I'm throwing these thoughts out there for anyone to consider. My intention is to be helpful to my Camaro friends and not start an argument. The last thing I want to see is a blown LLT or LFX project as a possible result of an IAT getting oil on it and causing a failure. These engines run on the ragged edge when supercharged. I have also added a portion of one of many articles that discuss this subject. Google it sometime to get a better understanding of IAT locations. For me, I'm leaving it in the MAF, as GM designed it and probably considered this very real possibility. Below is a portion of the article.

CAUSES OF FAILURE
An air temperature sensor can sometimes be damaged by
backfiring in the intake manifold. Carbon and oil contamination inside the intake manifold can also coat the tip of the sensor, making it less responsive to sudden changes in air temperature. The air temperature sensor itself may also degrade as a result of heat or old age, causing it to respond more slowly or not at all.
Sensor problems can also be caused by poor electrical connections at the sensor. A loose or corroded wiring connector can affect the sensor's output, as can damaged wiring in the circuit between the sensor and PCM.

alice · 10-01-2016, 07:35 AM

Jantzen! You must have a serious problem with crankcase pressures being so high. I would not race it until you have figured this out. It takes a lot of pressure to result in what happened to you. You have too much invested to take any chances. I am very interested to know what you find. I would not add any vacuum pump or device to resolve this until you know for sure, WHY this situation exists. Don't cover up an obvious, existing problem by adding anything else. This should not be happening!

JantzenOKC · 10-01-2016, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alice

Jantzen! You must have a serious problem with crankcase pressures being so high. I would not race it until you have figured this out. It takes a lot of pressure to result in what happened to you. You have too much invested to take any chances. I am very interested to know what you find. I would not add any vacuum pump or device to resolve this until you know for sure, WHY this situation exists. Don't cover up an obvious, existing problem by adding anything else. This should not be happening!

Well the clean side separator has nothing keeping it in. Just 2 orings, so its not hard to pull it out. Id love to think that there shouldn't be any crankcase pressure at 19-20psi but I think the reality is that it is going to at these extreme boost levels. I'm definitely going over everything but even on my old build, I would get a lot of oil mist coming out of the little breather filter on my oil cap. All from crankcase pressure pushing it out.

alice · 10-01-2016, 08:13 AM

If I were you, I would speak with Elite Engineering. To me, the most knowledgeable on the planet for LLT/LFX Turbo builds. Did you drill out the PCV nipple in the rear of the passenger side valve cover, if applicable, as Elite recommends? Did you use -8 hosing throughout the catch can plumbing? Personally, I think on a build such as yours, -6 would be too small. Are the check valves correctly oriented?

If so, it could be possible, due to your high boost levels, that you will need to add a vacuum pump assist for boost mode only. I have had one on mine for several years, I run 10 PSI and never had ANY oil or excessive blow by issues. I will attach a diagram of my system, however, note that I use (2) catch cans instead of one, which has nothing to do with blow by. Only to catch more oil. I used -8 hosing throughout. Note that my design is a bit more complicated than necessary because I still use MAF metered air, hence the 3-way solenoid valve. This system can be simplified if MAF metered air is not a requirement. Other designs utilizing a vacuum pump can be utilized depending upon preferences.

JantzenOKC · 10-01-2016, 08:57 AM

Thanks Monty, I'll look over that when i get time today. I think you're exactly right about the hose size. I'm still running 3/8 hose on all the catch can stuff. And 1/2 hose on the clean side separator. Only problem is the barb on the clean side separator is so small on the inside that it's actually smaller inside diameter than the 3/8 hose. So even though it's 1/2 it can't get the pressure out through the tiny inside diameter. And I think I need to drill out my orifice to be even bigger on the pass rear valve cover.

djcolopi · 10-01-2016, 11:03 AM

Solid run last night!

Machinehead · 10-01-2016, 12:11 PM

nice runs you'll be in the 10s soon.

JantzenOKC · 10-02-2016, 06:11 AM

Here's a video my buddy made from the track the other night. This is me and MagnumForce racing. We raced 3 times in a row and the other ones were better and much closer but this is the only one we got on film. He spun bad and I cut a really good light so I ran away with this one.

Watch Magnums car shoot fire out the exhaust when he lets off the throttle at the end.

JantzenOKC · 10-02-2016, 06:19 AM

.

tlavoie87 · 10-02-2016, 10:18 AM

great work, you too have done an incredible job with your cars unbelievably impressed hats off to both

HP Turbine · 10-02-2016, 11:05 AM

jeez you did catch a good light on that race!

JantzenOKC · 10-10-2016, 12:46 PM

I took the car on a little day trip Saturday to Lawton. We went to Mount Scott, Medicine Park, and drove through the Wichita Mountains. The car did great, drove almost 300 miles. This is the first time we've driven the car anywhere other than just locally. I reset my average mpg when we left and we averaged 31.2 from Edmond, OK to Lawton, OK all highway. And it is still sitting at 25.2 mpg after the whole 300 miles idling and driving up Mount Scott and back home. Pretty damn amazing for a car with over 700 horsepower and trapping 134mph in the quarter.

I'm falling in love with this car all over again.

10-01-2016, 07:26 AM	#1221
alice Drives: 2010 camaro limited edition turbo Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: saint petersburg, florida Posts: 499 View My Garage	I would like to raise a concern with the location of the IAT sensor. As you know, no matter how good or how many catch cans you have on a project, it is impossible to catch all the oil that eventually goes back into the intake manifold. I have (2) Elites on my TT LLT and they get most all the oil but unfortunately, still a very small amount gets by as oil mist. Another important point in our discussion is that the LLT and the LFX engines run higher compression ratios and surprisingly, due to extremely precise ability to control engine parameters with today's technology, turbocharging these engines push them to critical limits. Even at 10 to 1 CR, as Jantzens. All the data inputs must be accurate at all times for reliability and keeping the engine out of self destruct detonation. I want to discuss several points. First, if the IAT is in the MAF, as GM has provided, no oil can get onto the thermistor(except for a bad turbo compressor seal) that could upset the data from that sensor, thus causing the ECU to misinterpret and convert the information into a faulty output to critical controls. I considered breaking out the IAT on my project but after seeing first hand, the small amount of oil that still makes it to the intake, I decided not to. The IAT sensor has a huge effect on other functions, mainly timing and injection pulse width and if ANY oil gets to this sensor, it may fail to properly send accurate data to the ECU, thus a potential problem and more importantly, possible erratic behavior. Secondly, with water/meth injection systems, the assumption of true air temperature in the mixed air stream/velocity within the manifold may or may not be accurate due to the wet air hitting the IAT in a turbulent manner (intake pulses and changes in direction) thus possible causing the IAT to not react correctly by design. I'm throwing these thoughts out there for anyone to consider. My intention is to be helpful to my Camaro friends and not start an argument. The last thing I want to see is a blown LLT or LFX project as a possible result of an IAT getting oil on it and causing a failure. These engines run on the ragged edge when supercharged. I have also added a portion of one of many articles that discuss this subject. Google it sometime to get a better understanding of IAT locations. For me, I'm leaving it in the MAF, as GM designed it and probably considered this very real possibility. Below is a portion of the article. CAUSES OF FAILURE An air temperature sensor can sometimes be damaged by backfiring in the intake manifold. Carbon and oil contamination inside the intake manifold can also coat the tip of the sensor, making it less responsive to sudden changes in air temperature. The air temperature sensor itself may also degrade as a result of heat or old age, causing it to respond more slowly or not at all. Sensor problems can also be caused by poor electrical connections at the sensor. A loose or corroded wiring connector can affect the sensor's output, as can damaged wiring in the circuit between the sensor and PCM. Last edited by alice; 10-01-2016 at 07:30 AM. Reason: spellimg

10-01-2016, 08:13 AM	#1224
alice Drives: 2010 camaro limited edition turbo Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: saint petersburg, florida Posts: 499 View My Garage	If I were you, I would speak with Elite Engineering. To me, the most knowledgeable on the planet for LLT/LFX Turbo builds. Did you drill out the PCV nipple in the rear of the passenger side valve cover, if applicable, as Elite recommends? Did you use -8 hosing throughout the catch can plumbing? Personally, I think on a build such as yours, -6 would be too small. Are the check valves correctly oriented? If so, it could be possible, due to your high boost levels, that you will need to add a vacuum pump assist for boost mode only. I have had one on mine for several years, I run 10 PSI and never had ANY oil or excessive blow by issues. I will attach a diagram of my system, however, note that I use (2) catch cans instead of one, which has nothing to do with blow by. Only to catch more oil. I used -8 hosing throughout. Note that my design is a bit more complicated than necessary because I still use MAF metered air, hence the 3-way solenoid valve. This system can be simplified if MAF metered air is not a requirement. Other designs utilizing a vacuum pump can be utilized depending upon preferences. Attached Images Last edited by alice; 10-01-2016 at 01:27 PM. Reason: added info

10-01-2016, 08:57 AM	#1225
JantzenOKC Drives: '13 2LT/RS Twin Turbo Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma Posts: 3,073	Thanks Monty, I'll look over that when i get time today. I think you're exactly right about the hose size. I'm still running 3/8 hose on all the catch can stuff. And 1/2 hose on the clean side separator. Only problem is the barb on the clean side separator is so small on the inside that it's actually smaller inside diameter than the 3/8 hose. So even though it's 1/2 it can't get the pressure out through the tiny inside diameter. And I think I need to drill out my orifice to be even bigger on the pass rear valve cover. __________________ 3.6L Twin Turbo V6 Garrett GT28 turbos -- Jacfab forged connecting rods -- Diamond forged pistons(10.5:1) -- Alky Control Methonal Injection -- CircleD 2E triple disc torque converter -- BMR suspension 10.75 @ 131mph

10-01-2016, 11:03 AM	#1226
djcolopi Drives: @orange_maro Join Date: May 2014 Location: MD Posts: 1,036 View My Garage	Solid run last night! __________________ Instagram @orange_maro_

10-02-2016, 06:11 AM	#1228
JantzenOKC Drives: '13 2LT/RS Twin Turbo Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma Posts: 3,073	Here's a video my buddy made from the track the other night. This is me and MagnumForce racing. We raced 3 times in a row and the other ones were better and much closer but this is the only one we got on film. He spun bad and I cut a really good light so I ran away with this one. Watch Magnums car shoot fire out the exhaust when he lets off the throttle at the end. __________________ 3.6L Twin Turbo V6 Garrett GT28 turbos -- Jacfab forged connecting rods -- Diamond forged pistons(10.5:1) -- Alky Control Methonal Injection -- CircleD 2E triple disc torque converter -- BMR suspension 10.75 @ 131mph

10-01-2016, 06:44 AM	#1219
alice Drives: 2010 camaro limited edition turbo Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: saint petersburg, florida Posts: 499 View My Garage	In my opinion, knowing you have a Elite catch can installed, my guess is that the oil must be coming from a Turbo. Remove the discharge pipe from the turbos at the compressor and see if you find any oil residue. If so, must be a turbo oil leak. As you know, I have twin, rear mounted turbos and I check all piping at various intervals and everything is bone dry, at the compressors, inlet and outlet of intercooler, after MAF sensor and at the inlet of the throttle body.

10-01-2016, 07:35 AM	#1222
alice Drives: 2010 camaro limited edition turbo Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: saint petersburg, florida Posts: 499 View My Garage	Jantzen! You must have a serious problem with crankcase pressures being so high. I would not race it until you have figured this out. It takes a lot of pressure to result in what happened to you. You have too much invested to take any chances. I am very interested to know what you find. I would not add any vacuum pump or device to resolve this until you know for sure, WHY this situation exists. Don't cover up an obvious, existing problem by adding anything else. This should not be happening!

10-01-2016, 12:11 PM	#1227
Machinehead Drives: 2012 LS Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Dirty Jerzee Posts: 78	nice runs you'll be in the 10s soon.

10-02-2016, 06:19 AM	#1229
JantzenOKC Drives: '13 2LT/RS Twin Turbo Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma Posts: 3,073	. Attached Images __________________ 3.6L Twin Turbo V6 Garrett GT28 turbos -- Jacfab forged connecting rods -- Diamond forged pistons(10.5:1) -- Alky Control Methonal Injection -- CircleD 2E triple disc torque converter -- BMR suspension 10.75 @ 131mph

10-02-2016, 10:18 AM	#1230
tlavoie87 Built Not Bought Drives: 2010 Twin Turbo LFX Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 618	great work, you too have done an incredible job with your cars unbelievably impressed hats off to both __________________ 2010 Twin Turbo LFX In Memory of my DAD Gone but never Forgotten 2014 "Built Not Bought!' Sponsors: OverKill Motorsports

10-02-2016, 11:05 AM	#1231
HP Turbine Boosted Drives: 2012 1LT RS... with snails Join Date: May 2012 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,455 View My Garage	jeez you did catch a good light on that race! __________________ IPS Twin Turbos, Corsa Exhaust, Ported Throttle Body. 461 rwhp 443 rwtq!! Cameron Hass.ani

10-10-2016, 12:46 PM	#1232
JantzenOKC Drives: '13 2LT/RS Twin Turbo Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma Posts: 3,073	I took the car on a little day trip Saturday to Lawton. We went to Mount Scott, Medicine Park, and drove through the Wichita Mountains. The car did great, drove almost 300 miles. This is the first time we've driven the car anywhere other than just locally. I reset my average mpg when we left and we averaged 31.2 from Edmond, OK to Lawton, OK all highway. And it is still sitting at 25.2 mpg after the whole 300 miles idling and driving up Mount Scott and back home. Pretty damn amazing for a car with over 700 horsepower and trapping 134mph in the quarter. I'm falling in love with this car all over again. Attached Images __________________ 3.6L Twin Turbo V6 Garrett GT28 turbos -- Jacfab forged connecting rods -- Diamond forged pistons(10.5:1) -- Alky Control Methonal Injection -- CircleD 2E triple disc torque converter -- BMR suspension 10.75 @ 131mph Last edited by JantzenOKC; 10-10-2016 at 05:25 PM.