[Sledgehammer70]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

It's not just enthusiasts that buy V8's. But yes, we'll see.

You're right, but the average customer isn't buying the V8 either. GM will move v4's and V6's in beyond higher quantitis making it possible for them to offer the V8 and Z models.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer70

Let's remove the 1LE from the picture as in my defense I haven't even mentioned the 1LE.

But, the 2015 2SS on the Chevrolet website as we speak now has a price discount on it. Yes the 2016 model year is priced higher but it is mainly due to the added standard features that are now standard and not things you can add on.

Most users who think the price is to high are not factoring that in. On top of that. The Mustang fully loaded doesn't off what the 2SS offers in optional or upgradable options.

Looking at history, Mustang has always sold more cars because they have always had a wide range of options to cater to the mass market. It has only been since the Gen5 that Chevy took the lead with Camaro.

I honestly do not think Mustang is going to sustain a lead. The amount of cars they are selling MO they is hardly higher than the current Camaro and we all know those sales have dropped due to a new car coming.

As production moves forward and Chevy locks in their process, I guarantee more items will become optional so potential buys can add and remove things to the 2SS and 1SS. It's all about flexibility. GM did it with the Vette, they will do it here also.

But stepping back, GM's new 2016 Camaro offers more for a higher price. Yes a Mustang and Challenger can get close to it when you add items and rack up the charges on that side. But even than, they do not offer everything the Camaro has stock or with options.

I keep hearing the defense that the 2SS offers things stock that the Mustang doesn't even offer. Beyond the HUD...what exactly is so amazing in the 2SS?

It can't be the spectrum lights, Mustangs had that for years. Reconfigurable center display? Okay, the Mustang has a smaller version of it, granted it's not as large or cool.

Sure, no MRC option, but not everyone will order it and it's not included in the 2SS. No sunroof, see above. No NPP, yeah that's awesome and Ford now needs to adapt the GT350 exhaust to the GT.

[Sledgehammer70]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

A few things...

The GTPP is 35,000 and change, not 37+ It only reaches into the upper 30's if you put it on a premium.

I personally find the new SS to be overpriced in that if you're wanting an automatic SS your base entry price is $39,000.

At that price you can get a GTPP with heated and cooled seats, etc or a GT Automatic premium with the 3.55 gears.

To a brand loyalist the price difference isn't going to be a huge issue, but to John and Jane Q Public it WILL BE. They're going to see the $4,000 price difference and get turned off. They won't care about 1LE like performance, they won't even know what a 1LE is. They won't care about Brembos on all 4 corners especially since it's going to spend it's entire life on the streets where the GT'S standard braked are more than enough.

You folks that are defending the pricing are assuming the standard buying public think about skid pad times, max lateral g's and such, but they dont.

If Ford plays this right they can do very well for themselves with this.

We could careless about the standard public. This is a enthusiast Camaro forum. We're not here to defend the standard public for their 1LT or 1SS purchase.

It also isn't GM's focus. The base cars 1LT and 1SS come equipped with a lot or cool things Mustang or Challenger require spending for upgrades to get or that they simply do not offer. GM has equipped these cars to be the better offering.

No one cares about breaking? Those Brembos allow your car to stop faster.That 1LE type performance allows your car to safely maneuver your vehicle to avoid a potential collision while still giving you great control. The standard consumer looks for a cool, fast and safe car and the performance items are nice to haves. The fact they can get a 1SS and get all the safety for a few grand more along with other bells and whistles is going to go a long way.

[ChefBorOzzy]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I keep hearing the defense that the 2SS offers things stock that the Mustang doesn't even offer. Beyond the HUD...what exactly is so amazing in the 2SS?

It can't be the spectrum lights, Mustangs had that for years. Reconfigurable center display? Okay, the Mustang has a smaller version of it, granted it's not as large or cool.

Sure, no MRC option, but not everyone will order it and it's not included in the 2SS. No sunroof, see above. No NPP, yeah that's awesome and Ford now needs to adapt the GT350 exhaust to the GT.

Build out a GT PP premium the collision avoidance junk. That's the equivalent of a 2SS. Good on Ford for not forcing the nannies on you though.

I see a price increase coming for Mustang in 2017-2018.

[Sledgehammer70]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I keep hearing the defense that the 2SS offers things stock that the Mustang doesn't even offer. Beyond the HUD...what exactly is so amazing in the 2SS?

It can't be the spectrum lights, Mustangs had that for years. Reconfigurable center display? Okay, the Mustang has a smaller version of it, granted it's not as large or cool.

Sure, no MRC option, but not everyone will order it and it's not included in the 2SS. No sunroof, see above. No NPP, yeah that's awesome and Ford now needs to adapt the GT350 exhaust to the GT.

You're focusing on the 2SS with the items above. Let me break down a Base V8 GT from Ford vs. a Base V8 1SS Camaro from Chevy

Chevy Standard Options not included with a Mustang GT:
- 4 Piston Brembo breaks on all 4 corners.
- 8" driver info display that allows customization (cluster behind steering wheel)
- Interior trim, aluminum accents on door trim and shifter cap
- OnStar with 4G LTE
- Cooler, rear differential
- Cooler, transmission oil
- Driver Selector Mode, up to 4 modes available for various driving conditions - Snow/Ice, Tour, Sport and Track
- Suspension, Performance
- 20" Wheels
- Phone charging pad (cool if your phone supports it)
- Power outlet, 1, located on center console
- 20 Horse Power more
- 55+ lb-ft of torque

Some of this can be added to the Mustang, but due to the bundle options the cost goes up beyond the cost of the 1SS.

[sonnydurden]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

A few things...

The GTPP is 35,000 and change, not 37+ It only reaches into the upper 30's if you put it on a premium.

I personally find the new SS to be overpriced in that if you're wanting an automatic SS your base entry price is $39,000.

At that price you can get a GTPP with heated and cooled seats, etc or a GT Automatic premium with the 3.55 gears.

To a brand loyalist the price difference isn't going to be a huge issue, but to John and Jane Q Public it WILL BE. They're going to see the $4,000 price difference and get turned off. They won't care about 1LE like performance, they won't even know what a 1LE is. They won't care about Brembos on all 4 corners especially since it's going to spend it's entire life on the streets where the GT'S standard braked are more than enough.

You folks that are defending the pricing are assuming the standard buying public think about skid pad times, max lateral g's and such, but they dont.

If Ford plays this right they can do very well for themselves with this.

This... The fact that Ford offers a V8 for $33K puts GM at a disadvantage. They should of made an entry level 1SS for $34-$35K to be competitive

[dragonZ28]

There are 3 types of buyers:

1 - People who want to get into a Camaro at the lowest cost to say they have a Camaro. This includes cost of entry + car insurance. GM will sell to these guys still.

2 - People, usually young males, who like to do street racing and drag racing at the track. They all know dozens of people in the same mindset and this crowd has the strongest word of mouth. They don't care about MRC, super high-end electronic displays, expensive experimental HVAC systems, etc. What they care about is how much money it costs to make them go fast in a straight line. This crowd will go the the 5.0 - no doubt.

3 - Enthusiasts. These people are not classifiable as being the same.

-Some are brand loyal regardless of the cost. GM has these guys' sales regardless.

-Some weigh the cost vs benefit compared to their specific needs at the track to competition. This has nothing to do with HVAC knobs from the future, 8" displays, etc. Again, they may be missing the mark with these guys.

I understand the debate, and everybody is right; those defending the price, and those who are seeing sticker shock. No matter how much people attempt to convince them the price is worth it, they'll never see it through your filter.

I guess what I'm trying to ultimately say is that something's worth isn't a global yes or no. It varies from person to person. Sadly, people get excluded from getting the car they want due to restricitive package bundles.

I disagree with those who say the 1SS is well-equipped. Yes, it will be fast. Yes, it will perform extremely well. But, you have to feel a little bad when you don't get the premium sound system or leather seats in a $38-$4xK car.

I for one am getting a 2SS that will cost me $45,680 (before tax). I have owned a 98 Camaro V6, a 99 Z28, a 2001 Trans Am WS6, a 2010 2SS/RS, a 2006 C6 Z06, and a 2011 Mustang GT Premium. Out of all of those purchases, this is the one I feel most uneasy about. That isn't a fluke - I have my reasons.

[sonnydurden]

Originally Posted by dragonZ28

There are 3 types of buyers:

1 - People who want to get into a Camaro at the lowest cost to say they have a Camaro. This includes cost of entry + car insurance. GM will sell to these guys still.

2 - People, usually young males, who like to do street racing and drag racing at the track. They all know dozens of people in the same mindset and this crowd has the strongest word of mouth. They don't care about MRC, super high-end electronic displays, expensive experimental HVAC systems, etc. What they care about is how much money it costs to make them go fast in a straight line. This crowd will go the the 5.0 - no doubt.

3 - Enthusiasts. These people are not classifiable as being the same.

-Some are brand loyal regardless of the cost. GM has these guys' sales regardless.

-Some weigh the cost vs benefit compared to their specific needs at the track to competition. This has nothing to do with HVAC knobs from the future, 8" displays, etc. Again, they may be missing the mark with these guys.

I understand the debate, and everybody is right; those defending the price, and those who are seeing sticker shock. No matter how much people attempt to convince them the price is worth it, they'll never see it through your filter.

I guess what I'm trying to ultimately say is that something's worth isn't a global yes or no. It varies from person to person. Sadly, people get excluded from getting the car they want due to restricitive package bundles.

I disagree with those who say the 1SS is well-equipped. Yes, it will be fast. Yes, it will perform extremely well. But, you have to feel a little bad when you don't get the premium sound system or leather seats in a $38-$4xK car.

I for one am getting a 2SS that will cost me $45,680 (before tax). I have owned a 98 Camaro V6, a 99 Z28, a 2001 Trans Am WS6, a 2010 2SS/RS, a 2006 C6 Z06, and a 2011 Mustang GT Premium. Out of all of those purchases, this is the one I feel most uneasy about. That isn't a fluke - I have my reasons.

Very well said my friend!! I love the Camaro, always have. But if I'm going to spend $40K plus.. Maybe time for that Vette. And I'm not saying I won't or will until I test drive the Camaro and see what final cost is once the supplier discount is available. Many options now..

[anotherreject]

I think lots of people have the "sticker shock" for this reason, the Camaro in my eyes is the "working mans" sport car. To me, as a working man, the price is too steep. It seems reasonable to people who have the disposable income or those who are willing to finance a car for 7 or 8 years. Several years ago it seemed insane to finance a car for 6 years and now that is the norm, now with vehicle prices rising banks are financing cars for 7-8 years on the regular.

[CamaroBody]

The convertible is going to be at least $7500 more based on current prices. That would make a fully loaded 2ss over $60k w/tax.

You could always buy the 1ss without leather, heated/cooled seats/steering wheel, ambient lighting, Bose audio, and HUD for only $55k w/tax.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by CamaroBody

The convertible is going to be at least $7500 more based on current prices. That would make a fully loaded 2ss over $60k w/tax.

You could always buy the 1ss without leather, heated/cooled seats/steering wheel, ambient lighting, Bose audio, and HUD for only $55k w/tax.

You keep babbling bullshit numbers and options that are impossible. $48k 2SS with audio and tech package option (impossible). 55k 1SS vert with optional heated/cooled seats and HUD (impossible). Go buy your $35k w/tax loaded GT

[BWAYNE2008]

I for one am freaking out about the SS price. Look, I have no brand loyalty. I buy a vehicle because it is what I want for what I am willing to pay. I think the 2016 Camaro is an awesome car, and has great features. That being said, the Camaro I would want would be:

2ss ($41,300 + DFC $995 = $42,295)

Then add:
NPP Dual Mode Exhaust System $895.00 (Vehicle price now $43,190)

IO6 Chevrolet MyLink Radio with Navigation $495.00 (Vehicle price now $43,685)

Black Appearance Package (Have not seen price for this yet)

So at the minimum I would be paying $43,685 + TTL.


Now if I were going with a 2016 Mustang it would cost:

GT Premium ($34,207 [with Xplan pricing] + DFC $900 = $35,107)

Then add:
401A equipment group [includes 12 speaker audio, BLIS, driver's seat, mirrors, and ambient lighting with memory feature] $1,622 (Vehicle price now $36,729

GT Performance Package $2255 (Vehicle price now $ 38,984)

Voice activation system $719 (Vehicle price now $39,704)

So $39,704 + TTL for the Mustang with xplan pricing vs at least $43,685 + TTL for the Camaro. That's a difference of at least $3,981!! I do not qualify for GM employee or supplier pricing, thats why I did not factor it in. The best I could do is maybe GM credit union discount for $750, but it is just as easy to get the $750 Ford brochure discount, so I did not factor either one in.

So for a difference of at least $3,981, I could then do a tune on the Mustang, add headers, and other go fast goodies. And for those who are saying "what's a couple thousand more for your dream car?", neither are actually my dream car. Both are nice cars in there own right, but I typically get a new car every 3-4 years. Who's to say that the Gen 7 Camaro won't be my dream car, or that the 2020 Mustang won't be my dream car. This will be a tough choice.

[ChefBorOzzy]

Originally Posted by BWAYNE2008

I for one am freaking out about the SS price. Look, I have no brand loyalty. I buy a vehicle because it is what I want for what I am willing to pay. I think the 2016 Camaro is an awesome car, and has great features. That being said, the Camaro I would want would be:

2ss ($41,300 + DFC $995 = $42,295)

Then add:
NPP Dual Mode Exhaust System $895.00 (Vehicle price now $43,190)

IO6 Chevrolet MyLink Radio with Navigation $495.00 (Vehicle price now $43,685)

Black Appearance Package (Have not seen price for this yet)

So at the minimum I would be paying $43,685 + TTL.


Now if I were going with a 2016 Mustang it would cost:

GT Premium ($34,207 [with Xplan pricing] + DFC $900 = $35,107)

Then add:
401A equipment group [includes 12 speaker audio, BLIS, driver's seat, mirrors, and ambient lighting with memory feature] $1,622 (Vehicle price now $36,729

GT Performance Package $2255 (Vehicle price now $ 38,984)

Voice activation system $719 (Vehicle price now $39,704)

So $39,704 + TTL for the Mustang with xplan pricing vs at least $43,685 + TTL for the Camaro. That's a difference of at least $3,981!! I do not qualify for GM employee or supplier pricing, thats why I did not factor it in. The best I could do is maybe GM credit union discount for $750, but it is just as easy to get the $750 Ford brochure discount, so I did not factor either one in.

So for a difference of at least $3,981, I could then do a tune on the Mustang, add headers, and other go fast goodies. And for those who are saying "what's a couple thousand more for your dream car?", neither are actually my dream car. Both are nice cars in there own right, but I typically get a new car every 3-4 years. Who's to say that the Gen 7 Camaro won't be my dream car, or that the 2020 Mustang won't be my dream car. This will be a tough choice.

I understand you don't qualify for Supplier Pricing, but that still doesn't make this a fair comparison. MSRP to MSRP with similar options, they are about the same price. 4k is a decent difference and if it's a toss up between the cars, I'd say go for the Mustang.

I qualify for GM supplier pricing so a Camaro I'd buy would be about 1,500 more than an X Plan Mustang. To me, 2k is worth the difference for a car I'd prefer. Still, would like to drive the 2016 Camaro as I've driven the 15 Mustang a few times.

[Sledgehammer70]

Mustang.... nope, nope, nope, nope. I could never personally own just a GT. Now the GT350R.... that car is nice looking. But it's also out of reach on base price + dealer markup. It is really the only well optioned car with the right design looks for this model year. It actually looks aggressive.

But nope!