Which first gen. Camaro was top dog?

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by chevy454

Don't you wish your dealer had seen this, then?

True story...sadly...

My brother and I had "heard" about the COPOs through Hot Rod and Car Craft and SS&DI. My brother was set to order a new $3,500 give-or-take Big Block Chevy, April '69. Nova or Camaro. L78 was the engine of choice. But wait! A 427 Camaro?! How much?!

We had EIGHT Chev dealers within 50 miles (with, unfortunately, the SAME District Manager...). Visits/phone calls to 'em ALL. "Nope, no such beast". Can you check? "Yup". What did you find out? "No such beast. Those car magazines don't know what they're talkin' about!"

Order placed, finally, for an L78 Nova (his wife expecting their first...more room). Car arrives, on a dealer trade. My brother takes delivery. First break-in trip is to the nearest BIG City, 150 miles away. What is sitting out front of the area's largest Chev dealer, with a BIG sign, shouting to the world?

427 CAMAROS From $3,599!!!!

Damn...

[chevy454]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

True story...sadly...

My brother and I had "heard" about the COPOs through Hot Rod and Car Craft and SS&DI. My brother was set to order a new $3,500 give-or-take Big Block Chevy, April '69. Nova or Camaro. L78 was the engine of choice. But wait! A 427 Camaro?! How much?!

We had EIGHT Chev dealers within 50 miles (with, unfortunately, the SAME District Manager...). Visits/phone calls to 'em ALL. "Nope, no such beast". Can you check? "Yup". What did you find out? "No such beast. Those car magazines don't know what they're talkin' about!"

Order placed, finally, for an L78 Nova (his wife expecting their first...more room). Car arrives, on a dealer trade. My brother takes delivery. First break-in trip is to the nearest BIG City, 150 miles away. What is sitting out front of the area's largest Chev dealer, with a BIG sign, shouting to the world?

427 CAMAROS From $3,599!!!!

Damn...

Oh snap! What city/region of the country were you in? The odd thing is, there were several small town dealers that somehow figured it out and got clued in, even here in northern Arkansas/southern Missouri...

Funny about the guy discounting magazines/newspapers, because that was all too common...several folks tested factory 427 Camaros/Chevelles back in the day, and even up through the mid '80s folks were discounting that they ever existed!

[LOWDOWN]

Actually, it was in central Canada, but many COPOs landed up there, eventually...

My 30+ years of peddlin' GMs has seen this same scenario repeated countless times...more up-to-date info in the enthusiast press/on-line than from "official" sources...

[chevy454]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Actually, it was in central Canada, but many COPOs landed up there, eventually...

My 30+ years of peddlin' GMs has seen this same scenario repeated countless times...more up-to-date info in the enthusiast press/on-line than from "official" sources...

Oh man, Canada was *definitely* tuned in to the HP stuff, or at least some of it! I'm good friends with a guy that has several Canadian COPOs, mainly from Central down in London, Ont...

I bet your hearts sank when you saw that sign, but an L78 Nova is nothing to scoff at, either...I know I sure liked ours! Tell me more, color, trans, rear gear, etc...

[LOWDOWN]

Pete Simpson from Glencoe ON has a 9560, a 9561, and one-of-two non-Yenko '70 LT-1 Novas (both from Central). Dave Mathers, who was the hi-po salesguy at Central, wrote a column in the national motorsports rag of the time, Wheelspin News. Their ads appeared after my brother bought his Fathom Green/Black Bench M21/4.10-G80/ZJ5/ZJ7/A01/U63 version.

My '68 "Zed" was a Marina Blue-Black Stripe/Black bucket/M21/G80-4.10/U63/non-spoilered Bank repo, bought "right"...with "302" emblems on the front fenders.

Mathers' demo in '69? An L-88 Vette...no heat/defrost...in CANADA...hardcore!

For more on Pete's '70 LT-1 Nova, see Posts #9 and #11: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172662

[chevy454]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Pete Simpson from Glencoe ON has a 9560, a 9561, and one-of-two non-Yenko '70 LT-1 Novas (both from Central). Dave Mathers, who was the hi-po salesguy at Central, wrote a column in the national motorsports rag of the time, Wheelspin News. Their ads appeared after my brother bought his Fathom Green/Black Bench M21/4.10-G80/ZJ5/ZJ7/A01/U63 version.

Mathers' demo in '69? An L-88 Vette...no heat/defrost...in CANADA...hardcore!

That'd be him! I had read the MCR articles about his COPO cars and how he actually drove & raced them, and finally met him when I started racing at the Pure Stock Drags (1999)...I was a bit intimidated by him, because he was a celebrity to me, but he saw the car and came right over and struck up a conversation. Great guy, great family, and the group of folks he brings with him to the track are all great folks and a heck of a lot of fun to hang around with! And they're serious about their racing!! I've written Feature Car articles on all of his COPOs, I believe: click here (we founded/operated Yenko.net up until a couple months ago)

Fathom green, what an awesome color...I have a project Yenko Chevelle tucked in a corner of our shop that is an original Fathom Green car. And you got the optional 4.10/M21 as well, opposed to the standard 3.55/M20 setup...our L78 Nova had the 3.55/M20 setup and made for a good driver, but nothing like the M21/4.10 setup in our Yenko Nova.

[Edit: btw, Pete's son Owen went 12.73 @ 109.89 in the silver COPO nova a couple weeks ago at the Pure Stock Drags!]

[LOWDOWN]

Thanks for the link! A LOT of history there, Camaro comrades!

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by chevy454

Don't you wish your dealer had seen this, then?



Other than maybe the 'Vettes, Chevrolet's ad department SUCKED...and pretty much still does. Ford and especially Mopar weren't afraid to let the world know what was available, but Chevrolet made you dig for the good stuff.


"Came damn close"???? Do they give trophies for that, lol?!

You were the one that *repeatedly* posted that it was a driver's race between an L78 and a Z/28, and then you post a video of a D/S Z getting outran on the drag strip by a similarly equipped B/S L78 Camaro...Jerry will be flattered to see what you think of his driving I'm sure!

The extra 200 pounds plus the 3mph higher trap speed shows the 396 has a lot more horsepower than the 302, probably to the tune of 75-100hp more...the great thing about less weight, though, is that you don't have to tune it!

And *I* never assumed all of the "Z/28 people are idiots" (my dad owned a '69 Z for many years when I was younger), that one's on you...

And I still maintain it is a driver's race and can do so without putting down Jerry MacNeish's driving skill. I spent too many years watching and experiencing all sorts of Chevy hi performance drivetrains to have not come away with a feel for what was happening on the street and strip back in the day. And I can safely say that in '67-'69 in my area there were very few 427 Camaros in existence (plenty of fingers on one hand to count them), plenty of 396 Camaros with the overwhelming numbers being 325 and 350 hp versions. I'm not saying that the 396/375 was not an awesome engine, it was, as were the COPO 427 Camaros. At the same time I don't discount what Z/28s were capable of, I don't just rely on my experience owning one, the Chevy HiPerf club I belonged to had close to a dozen Z/28s among it's members in my town. Perhaps your experience was different than mine, I must however go by my own experience. The real point is not about who can put who's drivetrain down, they are all Chevy drivetrains, but we do need to look at real world performance while being aware that many of the so called magazine performance tests must have used horrible drivers to come up with some of the numbers they did.
Clyde

[JJPlace1]

I myself had a 69 Chevelle with a 396/375 Engine , it had factory aluminum dual plane intake manifold , rectangular port heads and solid lift cam . Transmission was an M22 Rock crusher as they called with a 12 bolt detroit locker rear end .I was only 18 years old when I was driving this beast. That would have been around 1980-81 . The memories are incredible , reading this article just reminded me of this . Thanks .

[thjr59]

My first car was a 69 SS396-375hp Chevelle 4 speed when I was 16 years old.
Then later on I had a 67 Camaro SS that had a 69 302 in it. Even though the Chevelle was heavier it would blow the Camaro away.

[Fightinfire921]

Here's a dyno test on a 302 with two cam changes. This was done in 1967.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by WYKOFF69Z

Here's a dyno test back on a 302 with two cam changes. This was done in 1967.

And I hope people pay attention and see that test was for a single 800 CFM Holley 4 barrel and not the cross ram dual quad.
Clyde

[Fraxum]

L78 acceleration > 302

Z28 all around > L78

[SSCamaroZ28]

Overall Camaro high performance was and always should be the Z28.