[hawk02]

Had my car's alignment checked yesterday at the dealer. Everything came back within spec.

The car had a four wheel alignment last summer when I had the revised front springs installed. The service tech confirmed he reused the rear camber and toe bolts when he did the alignment. I've got new bolts coming tomorrow.

If this were your car, would you spend the money to get the alignment dialed in closer to neutral and use the new bolts? My car is exclusively driven on the street, no track use.

[HDRDTD]

http://www.arp-bolts.com/p/technical.php

For an explanation of TTTY, TTA, etc.....

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by hawk02

Had my car's alignment checked yesterday at the dealer. Everything came back within spec.

The car had a four wheel alignment last summer when I had the revised front springs installed. The service tech confirmed he reused the rear camber and toe bolts when he did the alignment. I've got new bolts coming tomorrow.

If this were your car, would you spend the money to get the alignment dialed in closer to neutral and use the new bolts? My car is exclusively driven on the street, no track use.

That's good news. Given the amount of wear I saw on my tires from being out of spec I would and did have mine dialed-in. Like you, my service tech did re-use my old hardware and did not use the TTA method. Also probably like yours, my mechanic did not know that GM required new TTY bolts tightened using the TTA method. My bolts are on order and will be replaced when they arrive.

It seems that you fared well since your last alignment despite having re-used the bolts and simply tightening them up. Whether this is due to your driving habits, road conditions, method of tightening control arm bolts, or simple luck is anyone's guess at this point. I hope your results continue this way if you choose not to replace your bolts. It would certainly be less complicated and less expensive.

Although I intend to insist my mechanic follow the GM repair manual for this and future alignments, I'm still not convinced that the prescribed hardware and methods result in a more stable and persistent wheel trim. After all, my initial alignment done at the factory didn't hold very well for me. Your alignment using traditional methods seems to have held up much better.

I've opened an "Ask Al" thread to see if he'll share GM's justification for requiring TTY bolts and TTA method. Please weigh in there if you feel it's important.

Ask Al: Why alignments need TTA method with TTY bolts?


--Cal

[waterman]

Continuing to follow thread.

I appreciate the info and feedback.

hawk02, I am no expert in alignment but it looks like rear camber my have moved from center when the bolts were tightened.

Quote from BMWM.D.;

I was just going off my personal experience doing alignments (as part of my job) over the last 15 years. It’s pretty easy for your angles to change as you tighten things down. Or as you adjust the other side of the car. I find myself going back on a regular basis. On some cars, the toe will actually change every time as the eccentric is torqued. So you almost need to anticipate this before tightening everything down. If you don’t, it’ll be off once properly torqued. It’s like trying to hit a moving target.

I understand that the last you that you want to do is tell a tech how to do his job, but given the direction of deviation from center this might be the case.

Keep us posted. Thanks.

[hawk02]

Bolts arrived today.

Top is the toe adjustment, bottom the camber adjustment.

[BMWM.D.]

Originally Posted by hawk02

Had my car's alignment checked yesterday at the dealer. Everything came back within spec.

The car had a four wheel alignment last summer when I had the revised front springs installed. The service tech confirmed he reused the rear camber and toe bolts when he did the alignment. I've got new bolts coming tomorrow.

If this were your car, would you spend the money to get the alignment dialed in closer to neutral and use the new bolts? My car is exclusively driven on the street, no track use.

That looks pretty decent to me. The only thing I’d like to see are the individual rear toe numbers. Total toe is a little excessive, but within spec.

Individual rear toe is important, as that affects the car’s thrust angle. If the thrust angle is off, the car is basically dog-tracking down the road. That was the case with my car from the factory. Total toe was good, but it was toe’d out on the right side, and in excessively on the left side.

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by BMWM.D.

That looks pretty decent to me. The only thing I’d like to see are the individual rear toe numbers. Total toe is a little excessive, but within spec.

Individual rear toe is important, as that affects the car’s thrust angle. If the thrust angle is off, the car is basically dog-tracking down the road. That was the case with my car from the factory. Total toe was good, but it was toe’d out on the right side, and in excessively on the left side.

Very good point! In fact, if you look at my alignment specs in post #16 you'll see my left toe was way out of spec. This was probably responsible for the car always fishtailing to the right in rolling burnouts. It's also probably a major contributor to my left rear tires wearing more than my right. I can't say for sure it came from the factory like this because I never got it checked until now. It sure makes me wonder, though...

Maybe you should ask for the complete specs next time. It's possible they don't provide them unless they actually do the 4-wheel alignment.

--Cal

[hawk02]

Yesterday I took my four new bolts and headed out to the have my car's alignment dialed in.

What the alignment tech and myself discover is the original lower control arm washer DOES NOT fit over the new lower control arm bolt, aka camber adjustment bolt. The slots on the new bolt are slightly narrower than those of the original bolt.

Despite the dealer confirming the part number as 11547215, the online parts outlets appear to be correct in that this part # is not a replacement for the bolt on 2017+ Camaro ZL1.

While the service manual says the camber bolt is TTY and a new bolt should be used every time an adjustment is made, the dilemma right now is there is no part number I can find for a bolt that fits! I guess the next step is to order new washer and see if it will fit over the replacement bolt.

As for yesterday's alignment, the tech had to reuse the old camber bolt. He only adjusted camber and toe (he did use a new bolt for the toe adjustment) on the driver's side. The passenger side was well within spec so he left it alone.

If you're looking to follow the service manual's procedure of replacing the rear camber bolt when making an adjustment, you're going to have to hold off until a part number is found that fits or reuse the existing bolt. The toe adjustment is no problem as that part # is correct.

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by hawk02

Yesterday I took my four new bolts and headed out to the have my car's alignment dialed in.

What the alignment tech and myself discover is the original lower control arm washer DOES NOT fit over the new lower control arm bolt, aka camber adjustment bolt. The slots on the new bolt are slightly narrower than those of the original bolt.

Despite the dealer confirming the part number as 11547215, the online parts outlets appear to be correct in that this part # is not a replacement for the bolt on 2017+ Camaro ZL1.

While the service manual says the camber bolt is TTY and a new bolt should be used every time an adjustment is made, the dilemma right now is there is no part number I can find for a bolt that fits! I guess the next step is to order new washer and see if it will fit over the replacement bolt.

As for yesterday's alignment, the tech had to reuse the old camber bolt. He only adjusted camber and toe (he did use a new bolt for the toe adjustment) on the driver's side. The passenger side was well within spec so he left it alone.

If you're looking to follow the service manual's procedure of replacing the rear camber bolt when making an adjustment, you're going to have to hold off until a part number is found that fits or reuse the existing bolt. The toe adjustment is no problem as that part # is correct.

Thanks for the update!

I'm still waiting for my bolts to come in to the service center. When they do I'll take photos and compare to the original bolts. If I get a different part number than yours I'll update this thread. You did say you got your bolts yourself, outside the dealer supply chain, right? It's possible the online parts dealers haven't got an accurate parts catalog.

I hope you made sure they DID NOT use the "Torque To Angle" (TTA) procedure on the TTY bolt they re-used. This would over-stress the already stretched bolt.

--Cal

[Stephen12ZL1]

not to be rude but the worry about the reuse of these bolts is ludicrous! Obviously GM is confused as well and can’t provide the correct part #. Get your car aligned and leave the factory bolts in place. Mark the adjustment with a chalk line or sharpie and check for any deviations after a few hundred miles. I promise my intentions are good, and Master Techs I’ve spoken to about this laughed. Are you guys going to start talking about torquing brake bleeders next?

[hawk02]

Originally Posted by cwebster

Thanks for the update!

I'm still waiting for my bolts to come in to the service center. When they do I'll take photos and compare to the original bolts. If I get a different part number than yours I'll update this thread. You did say you got your bolts yourself, outside the dealer supply chain, right? It's possible the online parts dealers haven't got an accurate parts catalog.

I hope you made sure they DID NOT use the "Torque To Angle" (TTA) procedure on the TTY bolt they re-used. This would over-stress the already stretched bolt.

--Cal

Yes, I got the bolts from That GM Parts Guy.

When the dealer confirmed the part #, I had the same thought about the online parts catalogs just not being up to date. What's really strange is the online diagram assigns the bolt a number but does not include that number in the list of parts that can be ordered.

Since the bolt was being reused, the alignment tech did not torque it to angle.

I ordered a pair of new control arm bolt washers. Should be here on Friday. I'll let everyone know if the new washers fit.

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by hawk02

Yesterday I took my four new bolts and headed out to the have my car's alignment dialed in.

What the alignment tech and myself discover is the original lower control arm washer DOES NOT fit over the new lower control arm bolt, aka camber adjustment bolt. The slots on the new bolt are slightly narrower than those of the original bolt.

Despite the dealer confirming the part number as 11547215, the online parts outlets appear to be correct in that this part # is not a replacement for the bolt on 2017+ Camaro ZL1.

While the service manual says the camber bolt is TTY and a new bolt should be used every time an adjustment is made, the dilemma right now is there is no part number I can find for a bolt that fits! I guess the next step is to order new washer and see if it will fit over the replacement bolt.

As for yesterday's alignment, the tech had to reuse the old camber bolt. He only adjusted camber and toe (he did use a new bolt for the toe adjustment) on the driver's side. The passenger side was well within spec so he left it alone.

If you're looking to follow the service manual's procedure of replacing the rear camber bolt when making an adjustment, you're going to have to hold off until a part number is found that fits or reuse the existing bolt. The toe adjustment is no problem as that part # is correct.

Got a call from my dealer service manager saying my hardware is in. To head off any issues I told him about your problem with the washers not fitting over the new bolts. He confirmed that the lower control arm inner bolt was PN 11547215. However, his parts guy didn't just order the bolts. He ordered bolts, washers, and nuts. I don't know whether this was due to an abundance of caution or a block in their ordering system forcing the order, but I was somewhat relieved. It's more likely the new washers will fit the new bolts. If they had to change suppliers, for example, fasteners built to extremes of tolerances may have resulted in this incompatibility.

I'll find out for sure tomorrow when I go in to have them replaced. I'll get part numbers for all the new hardware. I'm going to keep the old hardware for testing too.

--Cal

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by Stephen12ZL1

not to be rude but the worry about the reuse of these bolts is ludicrous! Obviously GM is confused as well and can’t provide the correct part #. Get your car aligned and leave the factory bolts in place. Mark the adjustment with a chalk line or sharpie and check for any deviations after a few hundred miles. I promise my intentions are good, and Master Techs I’ve spoken to about this laughed. Are you guys going to start talking about torquing brake bleeders next?

You seem to feel strongly about this issue. Maybe you'd like to offer an opinion on the Ask Al question: Why alignments need TTA method with TTY bolts?

Please read carefully through the question posed. As you can see, the question doesn't take a position one way or the other. It's asking for background on their choices and opinions on the benefits of following the manual and drawbacks of using traditional methods. A summary of my personal opinion is in post #10.

--Cal

P.S. When someone opens with "not to be rude but...", you can be sure they intend to be rude. I'm not intimidated by such remarks. So no, I won't sit down and shut-up.

[Stephen12ZL1]

Originally Posted by cwebster

You seem to feel strongly about this issue. Maybe you'd like to offer an opinion on the Ask Al question: Why alignments need TTA method with TTY bolts?

Please read carefully through the question posed. As you can see, the question doesn't take a position one way or the other. It's asking for background on their choices and opinions on the benefits of following the manual and drawbacks of using traditional methods. A summary of my personal opinion is in post #10.

--Cal

P.S. When someone opens with "not to be rude but...", you can be sure they intend to be rude. I'm not intimidated by such remarks. So no, I won't sit down and shut-up.

the only thing I feel strongly about is no one is sure which way is correct. I feel as the two GM master techs I have spoken with share my sentiments. My statement about “not to be rude” was intended to be exactly that as my intention is not to hijack this post. There is a great deal of information in this post which is important to fasteners, TTY, and the necessity for replacement. Also, there is a bit of uneeded worry. Not one of the guys that intended to replace these TTY fasteners left an alignment shop with new bolts. I have 800 miles on track post alignment with factory bolts, and I have had no issues. My posts are friendly not hostile, and I welcome any useful information. Intimidation certainly was not part of the plan. Anyone who has read my posts in the past can attest to that fact.