[LesserO2Evils]

I actually agree with Choco, on this one. A stripped car@$75k, good for only track days, assuming no valvetrain issues inherent of the LS7, does NOT sound like anything Id sign up for.

[Denis]

I think the issue with the Z/28 is that people want a car that beats others in magazines and internet comparison videos, but people don't want to spent the coin to own it.

"oh hell yea, its so much faster than cars that cost twice as much. No way im spending 75 grand on it though, ill just buy a 1LE"

its a bragging rights car for the internet age. We can all rub the nurbergring time in other companies faces. But no one is buying it because they just don't need it. And GM knew that going in, its not a high volume car. they knew it was a niche car when they built it.

Everyone keeps saying how much they want carbon ceramics and spool valve suspension on the 6th gen SS but no one is going to drop that coin on it when it comes down to checking the box on their order form. Don't get me wrong, some will and those are the people that are serious about tracking these cars. the majority of us however drive to work and back in them.

The Z/28 was a design exercise to prove that they could. and they did it very very well.

just my .02

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Denis

I mean unless GM is working on a secret engine no one knows about, you can bet on the LT4 to be in the hi-po model(s).

You can almost bet they are. One of the things that I really like about GM is their engine development program, especially for the small block V8. They never stop working on them.

Let's take the Z06 for example. They said they went with FI because they could not get the numbers they wanted otherwise. That doesn't mean they just stopped R&D right there and threw in the towel, the word they forgot in their statement was "yet".

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

I don't think it was the price tag. It was the impracticality of the car that was the problem IMO. No radio, no heated power/seats, tires that can't be driven in the smallest amount of rain...it was the biggest stripper car made in ages. People want luxuries. The $75,000 price isn't an issue, but people aren't going to buy a $75,000 car with no power seat and air conditioning (yea, you can add the A/C option, I know, but COME ON). It's a car that can't really be driven practically. The Z2/8 was an idea. It should've never been fully executed.

Why there were actually Z2/8's produced for dealer orders is beyond me. The Z2/8 should've been manufactured for customer orders, only. I guess it's all money to GM and if a dealer wanted to order one for the showroom floor that's their problem, but IMO making it a production car that sits outside on dealer lots is laughable.

Maybe they'll make a 1LE, but I cannot imagine another Z2/8. Not in anything that resembles the Gen 5, anyway. The Z2/8 could've been cheaper than the ZL1 and I don't think it would've sold. No normal person would want to drive that thing on the street. I honestly think it's a hunk of junk and I'd rather drive a 1SS on the streets any day. Especially with the ticking timebomb LS7 in it. Those motors are junk, period.

Which is why I believe Ford is doing it right with the GT350 and the GT350R. You can get that car pretty much anyway you want it. Want a full out weekend track car, you can get the R like that. You want the 5.2 FPC and the magneride you can get it in the 350. Want all the performance goodies of the R but still want the creature comforts you can get it like that.

Originally Posted by Denis

I think the issue with the Z/28 is that people want a car that beats others in magazines and internet comparison videos, but people don't want to spent the coin to own it.

"oh hell yea, its so much faster than cars that cost twice as much. No way im spending 75 grand on it though, ill just buy a 1LE"

its a bragging rights car for the internet age. We can all rub the nurbergring time in other companies faces. But no one is buying it because they just don't need it. And GM knew that going in, its not a high volume car. they knew it was a niche car when they built it.

Everyone keeps saying how much they want carbon ceramics and spool valve suspension on the 6th gen SS but no one is going to drop that coin on it when it comes down to checking the box on their order form. Don't get me wrong, some will and those are the people that are serious about tracking these cars. the majority of us however drive to work and back in them.

The Z/28 was a design exercise to prove that they could. and they did it very very well.

just my .02

Agreed GM wanted to build something special and they did. The Z/28 was one of those projects that was to show what they were capable of and they did one hell of a job doing it.

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

You can almost bet they are. One of the things that I really like about GM is their engine development program, especially for the small block V8. They never stop working on them.

Let's take the Z06 for example. They said they went with FI because they could not get the numbers they wanted otherwise. That doesn't mean they just stopped R&D right there and threw in the towel, the word they forgot in their statement was "yet".

over on C5 someone made the anaology maybe they are working on something along the lines of LS1 to LS6 for a special camaro. That I could see.

An all new engine ala LS3 to LS7 just for the Camaro I don't see any chance of that happening. GM loves sharing engines, what else would this special engine power? ATS-V has the TT6, CTS V has the LT4. Using history as my guide, I don't see a true new unique engine for a special Camaro. A hot rodded version of the LT1 that I see as very possible

[Raven87]

An 'impractical' or race-focused 'street' car will sell - at the right price with the right marketing and yes, the right features. Just look at Porsche and their 911 GT series cars.

The current Z/28 is great at what it does but yes, it is highly impractical for the average Joe. But I am 100% certain it would have sold much better at a lower price. More options at $75K probably would not have sold the car any better.

IMHO, the only way the Z/28 would have sold at $75K was if it had 650+HP. There is a lot of concern about the LS7 reliability proven by valve drop issues on the C6Z plus it was an 'old' motor.

When people could buy the ZL1 with more HP, Mag Ride, etc for LESS money that pretty much doomed the Z/28. It had NOTHING to offer over the ZL1 other than a faster track time which 99% of the buyers really don't care about.

But look at the Hellcat - they can get any price they want (for now) and it is not because the car offers AC or a big sound system. It is because it is the big dog on the porch.

[Sidedraft]

I followed the 5th gen development since 2003-2004 and Chevrolet gave the community the Z28 it wanted: a hardcore, naturally aspirated, no-frills race car for the street, positioned so that it would be the top trim in the lineup. I believe the only reason why we got a ZL1 for the 5th gen was because GM didn't want to slap a Z28 badge on a heavy, forced induction car. The Z28 is a great car, a halo car for the Camaro brand, but it didn't sell because of its price tag -- a natural result of the constraints put on the car during its design.

I don't believe you can position a future Z28 as a top of the line street car while limiting yourself to 1960's era design criteria, not because it wouldn't be good, but because there is no market for an $80,000+ Camaro. In a world of 700+ HP sedans, increasing CAFE restrictions and government regulations adding more bulk to already overweight cars, it makes sense to use forced induction to get more performance out of smaller engines while reducing cost. As much as that goes against the grain of the original Z28 formula, it's inevitable. Even Ferrari is abandoning naturally aspirated V8s.

I feel there is no way Chevrolet will miss out on offering a Z28 of some kind for the 6th gen Camaro. The designation has too much history. I think a lot will hinge on what Ford does with the GT350 and the (potential) GT500. For me, I'd like to see a Z28 positioned between the SS and LT4 car -- with more of a focus on handling and track performance.

[Raven87]

Just my guess but...

Gen 6 Z/28 - Naturally aspirated LT1 with track focus, maybe a few more HP. I think this car is a very likely candidate to be built. It wouldn't have to add a ton to the price structure either.

Gen 6 ZL1 - LT4 derivative with similar Gen 5 features (mag ride, etc) and about 625-635 HP. Higher priced than the Z/28 (if the ZL1 gets even built at all).

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Raven87

If the Z/28 had a base price equivalent to the GT500, it would probably have sold out too. $75K+ is really stupid marketing.

Even if they had come in at $69K (and the GT500 was still less than that!) it would have helped but when you have dealers who took the $75k and were even ADDING a 'Market Adjustment' to it, it sent potential buyers to other platforms.

Classic GM - shooting itself in the foot, time and again.

The price was not marketing. The price was due to the parts in the car. The Z/28 used a lot of expensive, track focused parts that made the price tag what it was.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The price was not marketing. The price was due to the parts in the car. The Z/28 used a lot of expensive, track focused parts that made the price tag what it was.

The price set by the company is dependent upon R&D costs as well as parts/labor to build the car and how easily they can spread the overall costs out, sometimes over other models.

Yes, those were some expensive parts but when you consider what you got with the Z/28 - it was flat out overpriced in today's market.

GM set the price of the car more than the car set the price. The LS7 was a very expensive piece of the equation but still GM set the price too high to create more sales. Is the Z/28 suspension more costly than the Mag Ride set up? Same for the gears and coolers in the ZL1 vs the Z/28 - are they that different and that much more expensive? I don't think so.

It was a Catch 22 at that price structure. I don't know if GM would have sold more Z/28s if the price was even the same as the ZL1?

I would love to have a Z/28. Just not for that kind of money.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Raven87

The price set by the company is dependent upon R&D costs as well as parts/labor to build the car and how easily they can spread the overall costs out, sometimes over other models.

Yes, those were some expensive parts but when you consider what you got with the Z/28 - it was flat out overpriced in today's market.

GM set the price of the car more than the car set the price. The LS7 was a very expensive piece of the equation but still GM set the price too high to create more sales. Is the Z/28 suspension more costly than the Mag Ride set up? Same for the gears and coolers in the ZL1 vs the Z/28 - are they that different and that much more expensive? I don't think so.

It was a Catch 22 at that price structure. I don't know if GM would have sold more Z/28s if the price was even the same as the ZL1?

I would love to have a Z/28. Just not for that kind of money.

The Z/28 was far from overpriced compared to the cars it was aimed at. It was actually a bargain. You can't compare a base V6 Camaro to the Z/28 and say the Z/28 is expensive.

Yes, the DSSVs are more expensive than the MRC.

The ZL1 doesn't come with R compound tires. The ZL1 doesn't come with carbon ceramic brakes. The ZL1 doesn't come with standard Recaro seats. The ZL1 doesn't come with standard tubular headers. The LSA is cheaper than the LS7. The ZL1 doesn't have a radio and A/C delete option. All those things add up.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Z/28 was far from overpriced compared to the cars it was aimed at. It was actually a bargain. You can't compare a base V6 Camaro to the Z/28 and say the Z/28 is expensive.

Yes, the DSSVs are more expensive than the MRC.

The ZL1 doesn't come with R compound tires. The ZL1 doesn't come with carbon ceramic brakes. The ZL1 doesn't come with standard Recaro seats. The ZL1 doesn't come with standard tubular headers. The LSA is cheaper than the LS7. The ZL1 doesn't have a radio and A/C delete option. All those things add up.

If the car was not overpriced and is such a great value then it should have sold better right?

And are those new pieces THAT substantially more than what comes on the ZL1 if you deduct what the ZL1's parts would be that get replaced?

And 'delete options' should drop the price.

No, the Z/28's Waterloo was the pricing vs what it offered most of all.

[rmyers]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

How does a twin turbo V6 fit the history of a high winding small block built specifically to meet the requirements of Trans Am racing?

The LF4 and the LT1 are pretty even. The LF4 makes a little more horsepower but the LT1 makes a little more torque. I wouldn't be surprised if they are pretty close in weight too.

Here is how I draw the correlation to history. The 1st gen Z/28 had a small block 302, a motor unavailable in any other GM model before or after the 1st Gen Camaro. Could be ordered with a dual four barrel cross ram intake, again unavailable on any other model before or after. If I recall correctly, I think the second Gen Z/28 had new unique motor among the Camaro lineup, the LT1, I am not sure but I don't think it was available in another Camaro at the same time. So GM could build one and put an LT1 in it, but then it really wouldn't be different from the SS. I just believe that each time GM builds a Z/28, it should be a car that sets itself apart from all other Camaro models.

Step back and look at the uniqueness of the 5th Gen Z/28. Heck some parts are even restricted from ordering unless you own a Z/28.

Fast forward today, a small displacement motor with twin turbo, which by GM standards will be a first, as sitting today in the next ATS-V. Since Cadillac is no longer a luxury car company as they were in the sixties, they get to play in the space now. But that motor would likely not have been built for any other car than the ATS-V. Is it even plausable that perhaps the ATS-V would not have been planned were it not also in the plans to share that same technology in another GM vehicle? I think it is.

[airjonny]

What are the chances of seeing another high revving NA engine from GM. They said they couldn't meet performance targets and emissions with the z06, but could they try to put it in the next hot Camaro?

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by airjonny

What are the chances of seeing another high revving NA engine from GM. They said they couldn't meet performance targets and emissions with the z06, but could they try to put it in the next hot Camaro?

With today's technology and manufacturing techniques, ANYTHING is POSSIBLE.

But the bigger question is this - How LIKELY is it?

I would love to see a high revving N/A motor in a Gen 6 Z/28 with a lot of horsepower. I guess time will tell... it's just how likely is it to happen?

I really think we would be more inclined to see an LT1 tweaked a bit to 500+ HP, maybe even 550 for the Z/28. But that is just a wish list or best guess.