[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Bringing the Hellcat into this track time conversation would be like comparing a Hellcat to a Z28 on the dragstrip, its nonsense. The Hellcat was never designed to be a track car. Dodge proved its track prowness with the Viper ACR.

Now back to the ZL1 vs GT350R, I wonder how the track time of the GT350R would have improved by giving it equal power to the ZL1? Do you think it would have improved by .39 seconds? How about if the GT350R had another 25-hp? Yes it is Ford's fault for not having a more powerful version of the Mustang at this time, but bottom line is the R lost because it lacked HP not because it was not up to the task in the handling/braking department.

What would happen if the two went at it for a 20-minutes session, would the ZL1 eventually start limiting power because of SC heat, would the ZL1s brakes finally give up? I'm pretty sure the R would be ok for that duration.

And the Scat Pack was designed to be a track car? Not even close. So how is it not a valid argument?? It is a perfect example of how adding power to a car does not make it perform.

Your second point is relevant because the reverse holds true. How much time would be gained on the SS 1LE's time if it had equivalent HP to the R? But what if GM built a ZL1 with the pure track focus like the R...oh wait they did the ZL1 1LE. That's shows the difference in power outputs for similar focused cars.

So I can meet you halfway there in regards to the ZL1 1LE. But you can't just explain how close the SS 1LE is in time and at the same time say the ZL1's besting the Rs time is solely due to power. The real story is how little the extra 195HP of the ZL1 compared to the SS improved the lap times. About 2 secs on Big Willow. Almost the same difference in the R and SS 1LE times around LS. Why? because the ZL1 was never designed to be a pure track car. It needed to be comfy enough for DD but also perform at the strip. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Let's not even go into track reliability. Last I checked the R had a few reports of trouble. Maybe not many reports but not less than the ZL1 either. Although I've not heard any reports of overheating anything at the track for the ZL1. MT specifically mentioned ragging on the car the entire day without a hiccup. I'm sure they could torture test a car better than the average Joe on a track day. Maybe you are thinking about the ZO6.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Bringing the Hellcat into this track time conversation would be like comparing a Hellcat to a Z28 on the dragstrip, its nonsense. The Hellcat was never designed to be a track car. Dodge proved its track prowness with the Viper ACR.

Now back to the ZL1 vs GT350R, I wonder how the track time of the GT350R would have improved by giving it equal power to the ZL1? Do you think it would have improved by .39 seconds? How about if the GT350R had another 25-hp? Yes it is Ford's fault for not having a more powerful version of the Mustang at this time, but bottom line is the R lost because it lacked HP not because it was not up to the task in the handling/braking department.

What would happen if the two went at it for a 20-minutes session, would the ZL1 eventually start limiting power because of SC heat, would the ZL1s brakes finally give up? I'm pretty sure the R would be ok for that duration.

Before you delve too far into fantasy land the 350 is the car that overheats with track duty and bursts into flames not the ZL1. Also while you're adding some power to the 350R and saying it is just as good or better than the ZL1 let's remember that the halo Camaro for track duty is the ZL1 1LE. The 350 and 350R are soundly beat by the standard ZL1. The ZL1 1LE is on another planet. Car for car Ford lost this generation handily to this point.
SS>GT, 1LE> GT 350, ZL1> 350R.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Because its extra power is enough to overcome its weight. Come on dude, I know you know that!

[MazzaBL]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Before you delve too far into fantasy land the 350 is the car that overheats with track duty and bursts into flames not the ZL1. Also while you're adding some power to the 350R and saying it is just as good or better than the ZL1 let's remember that the halo Camaro for track duty is the ZL1 1LE. The 350 and 350R are soundly beat by the standard ZL1. The ZL1 1LE is on another planet. Car for car Ford lost this generation handily to this point.
SS>GT, 1LE> GT 350, ZL1> 350R.

Thank you. Finally someone with common sense. This whole thread is mustang guys comparing higher end mustangs, to lesser trim camaros. Why can’t they compare equal price point/trim level cars?
SS > GT
SS 1LE > GT PP
ZL1 > GT350
ZL1 1LE > GT350R

When you compare equal trim cars it’s not even a contest.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Now back to the ZL1 vs GT350R, I wonder how the track time of the GT350R would have improved by giving it equal power to the ZL1? Do you think it would have improved by .39 seconds? How about if the GT350R had another 25-hp? Yes it is Ford's fault for not having a more powerful version of the Mustang at this time, but bottom line is the R lost because it lacked HP not because it was not up to the task in the handling/braking department.

What would happen if the two went at it for a 20-minutes session, would the ZL1 eventually start limiting power because of SC heat, would the ZL1s brakes finally give up? I'm pretty sure the R would be ok for that duration.

Hmm, well what if the ZL1 had the weight advantage of the R including CF wheels? The ZL1 was designed as a whole car. It isn't a "take the blower off and see what happens" kind of deal. That argument is retarded anyway. And it isn't "slap a blower on the R and see what happens" either...if it was then the R would have been about $10K more expensive because they would have also had to beef up the engine internals, re-do the ECU tuning, added a better fuel system, and adjusted the front for the extra weight of the blower. So guess what, it would have either been at least $10K more expensive or they would have had to cut costs elsewhere...CF wheels maybe? THAT's what would have happened if they added an extra 120 hp to the R. A $75K MSRP would have put it way out of it's price range.

The ZL1 was designed with the overheating issues of the Z06 in mind. It was specifically said that with the extra heat exchangers put on the ZL1 it WILL NOT overheat. 20 laps and it would have been fine. How would the R have held up? Well since there is a CAL against Ford for the car going into limp mode due to heat on the track I'd say the R would be the one struggling after 20 laps.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by soloknight6

From C&D's test on VIR:

GT350R: 2:51.8s
SS 1LE: 2:54.8s

From MT @ Laguna Seca (Randy Pobst.)

Gt350R: 1:36.11s
SS1LE: 1:37.78s

Since the GT350R is faster than the base GT350, its safe to say the 1LE is a match.

I doubt the 2018 PP2 will be faster than the GT350R lol. SS1LE will still be the performer.

Were those tests done on the same day at the same track with the same driver? If not then can I throw in the fact that the SS 1LE did the same time at Willow Springs as the GT350R?

[Zodiac]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I work in the medical field. And I don't think there was ever a time that Camaro5 forum members justified lesser performance by talking about better sales. Funny you dug up those links but don't have time to find others to prove me wrong? LOL...light-hearted ribbing there, don't take it seriously.

I think you're mistaken me for someone else. I didn't dig up or post any links?

Either way I don't care, I was just stating what I remembered back in the Camaro 5th gen/S197 days. I know which car I would buy if I was looking for another 2 door coupe, and my basis isn't on sales or performance. Any car can be fast, depends on how much you want to spend.

I don't care which car is faster around a track, prefer drag racing anyway. I liked my solid rear axle 13 GT to my independent rear 15 GT. Unfortunately my schedule keeps me from enjoying it.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Bringing the Hellcat into this track time conversation would be like comparing a Hellcat to a Z28 on the dragstrip, its nonsense. The Hellcat was never designed to be a track car. Dodge proved its track prowness with the Viper ACR.

Now back to the ZL1 vs GT350R, I wonder how the track time of the GT350R would have improved by giving it equal power to the ZL1? Do you think it would have improved by .39 seconds? How about if the GT350R had another 25-hp? Yes it is Ford's fault for not having a more powerful version of the Mustang at this time, but bottom line is the R lost because it lacked HP not because it was not up to the task in the handling/braking department.

What would happen if the two went at it for a 20-minutes session, would the ZL1 eventually start limiting power because of SC heat, would the ZL1s brakes finally give up? I'm pretty sure the R would be ok for that duration.

Which was the faster track car in the 5th gen?

444 HP Boss 302 LS or 662 HP GT500? Answer = the less powerful Boss 302 LS

500 HP Z/28 or 580 HP ZL1? Answer = the less powerful Z/28

So if the GT350R got the additional HP of the ZL1 it would also get its additional weight. Not a certain recipe for success with Ford.

And, as others pointed out, a GT350R with ZL1 power WOULD be expected to match the ZL1-1LE. Cricket from Ford

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Which was the faster track car in the 5th gen?

444 HP Boss 302 LS or 662 HP GT500? Answer = the less powerful Boss 302 LSthe gt500 was 2.2sec faster on the lightning lap

500 HP Z/28 or 580 HP ZL1? Answer = the less powerful Z/28 the z28 was a couple hundred lbs lighter used DSSV shocks and CC brakes and was only down like 25whp.

....

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

....

1) The Z/28 had 75 less HP ....and, are you saying its lighter weight was a deciding factor?

2). I'll go with this assessment of the Boss vs GT500

Al Oppenheiser, chief engineer for the Chevrolet Camaro, answers the question why the Boss 302 was selected over the substantially more powerful Shelby GT 500, by saying that in testing, the Boss is the fastest Mustang around the track, and made for the most logical competitor for the Z/28
http://www.motortrend.com/news/video...a-seca-418167/

[ULTRAZLS1]

Lol he doesn’t know what excuse to use they so many he’s now contradicting himself

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

1) The Z/28 had 75 less HP ....and, are you saying its lighter weight was a deciding factor?

2). I'll go with this assessment of the Boss vs GT500

The dynos I have seen for the Z28 and ZL1 Show a 30-40whp delta. thats not enough power to offset the the 300lb weight advantage, CC brakes, spool valve shocks and Trofeo R's. The weight loss certainly helped but the Z28 had enough advantages to outperfom the ZL1 on track even if it weighed the same...hell the 6th gen ZL1 struggles to beat it.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by hotlap

1) The Z/28 had 75 less HP ....and, are you saying its lighter weight was a deciding factor?

2). I'll go with this assessment of the Boss vs GT500

He noted whp, not bhp.

The BOSS302 (LS) vs GT500 looks like:

. . . . . . . . . . . . BOSS302 . . . .GT500
MT fig-8 . . . . 00:24:60 . . . . 00:24:20
Motown Mile. 00:58:39 . . . . 00:56:19
WS SoW . . . . 01:26:10(LS) 01:27:30
Sachenring . . 01:39:85(LS) 01:38:26
MRLS . . . . . . . 01:41:06 . . . . 01:37:70
VIR GEC . . . . . 03:02:80(LS) 03:00:60

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Before you delve too far into fantasy land the 350 is the car that overheats with track duty and bursts into flames not the ZL1. Also while you're adding some power to the 350R and saying it is just as good or better than the ZL1 let's remember that the halo Camaro for track duty is the ZL1 1LE. The 350 and 350R are soundly beat by the standard ZL1. The ZL1 1LE is on another planet. Car for car Ford lost this generation handily to this point.
SS>GT, 1LE> GT 350, ZL1> 350R.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are not talking about the Tech Pack GT350 with the cooling issues, it is not even offered anymore. Spin this anyway you like. The ZL1 won the Head 2 Head because of its HP advantage over the GT350R, anyone with common sense who read the article can understand that.

Directly from the article "The Camaro is dramatically faster on the front straight", no hp advantage there right?

Again its Fords fault for not having a high hp car out there to compete with the ZL1s.

Presently Chevy has no N/A answer to the R, and Ford has no SC answer to the ZL1s.