[toohighpsi]

I find VP MS109 (unleaded and oxygenated) to be almost magic in these engines - unfortunately expensive though.

I haven't tried the 100 unleaded as Ted suggests, but I'll add that to the list and give it a try as its probably cheaper than the 109...

[SC88]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Keep in mind you need less liquid by volume with race gas vs E-85.

We also found that these engines do not like a lot of octane or Lead so I would recommend 100 Unleaded for max power on Gasoline.

It is my experience you will still make more power on E-85 than gasoline IF it weren't for the limiter being the fuel system parts availability at this time.

There are higher flowing high pressure pumps and injectors coming to market but you will fall off your chair when you see the prices.

We are making as much power as we are comfortable with on an stock long block using the LT-4 fuel system parts.

Anything above this power level will require forged internals and larger fuel system.

These engines are failing with Meth injection set ups across the nation but no one is talking about it.

Ted.

oh I know all to well about the fuel system. You quoted me a number and thought it was a misprint lol.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by SC88

oh I know all to well about the fuel system. You quoted me a number and thought it was a misprint lol.

We just have to set reasonable goals and you can do a lot with a little.

Ted.

[Perdieu]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Keep in mind you need less liquid by volume with race gas vs E-85.

We also found that these engines do not like a lot of octane or Lead so I would recommend 100 Unleaded for max power on Gasoline.

It is my experience you will still make more power on E-85 than gasoline IF it weren't for the limiter being the fuel system parts availability at this time.

There are higher flowing high pressure pumps and injectors coming to market but you will fall off your chair when you see the prices.

We are making as much power as we are comfortable with on an stock long block using the LT-4 fuel system parts.

Anything above this power level will require forged internals and larger fuel system.

These engines are failing with Meth injection set ups across the nation but no one is talking about it.

Ted.

First off thanks I need a new key board after spitting tea all over it..

Could you please show us some facts on engines blowing up from quality shops because of Meth... not high HP levels, but the meth part causing the issue.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by toohighpsi

I find VP MS109 (unleaded and oxygenated) to be almost magic in these engines - unfortunately expensive though.

I haven't tried the 100 unleaded as Ted suggests, but I'll add that to the list and give it a try as its probably cheaper than the 109...

Pretty good stuff, and we can buy it at the pump at select stations around CT.

Ted.

[Chevy71]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Keep in mind you need less liquid by volume with race gas vs E-85.

We also found that these engines do not like a lot of octane or Lead so I would recommend 100 Unleaded for max power on Gasoline.

It is my experience you will still make more power on E-85 than gasoline IF it weren't for the limiter being the fuel system parts availability at this time.

There are higher flowing high pressure pumps and injectors coming to market but you will fall off your chair when you see the prices.

We are making as much power as we are comfortable with on an stock long block using the LT-4 fuel system parts.

Anything above this power level will require forged internals and larger fuel system.

These engines are failing with Meth injection set ups across the nation but no one is talking about it.

Ted.

I'm curious about the actual meth injection failures you mention here. Just like you mentioned, no one else is speaking about that. In fact, all I hear is how great it works and wakes up the fuel system.

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by Chevy71

I'm curious about the actual meth injection failures you mention hear. Just like you mentioned, no one else is speaking about that. In fact, all I hear is how great it works and wakes up the fuel system.

I doubt they're going to get into it, so I'll take a stab at it. If I've miss-stated anything, please feel free to jump in and correct me.

If you look at how meth injection works, you can see what he's talking about. The meth injected burns but doesn't detonate like normal gas would. When it burns the water released cools and it adds octane so you can run higher boost while on pump gas. When everything works, it's great, but that's assuming nothing ever goes wrong.

When you start looking at the LT1 engine and how they designed everything, including the spray pattern of the injectors, they've built it all to maximize every drop of fuel during combustion for a high compression engine. If you run out of meth or something malfunctions and it's not injected at the right time, you'll end up with severe detonation which is fatal to the engine. You're also relying on an aftermarket system to time the injection exactly right, in order, into the correct cylinder and all of this is happening very, very fast. It's not that it doesn't work, it's that there are a lot of variables for a daily driver/street car.

Here's some info I found online about the chemistry behind burning methanol fuel:

Methanol burns in oxygen, including open air, forming carbon dioxide and water:
2 CH3OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 4 H2O One problem with high concentrations of methanol in fuel is that alcohols corrode some metals, particularly aluminium. An acid, albeit weak, methanol attacks the oxide coating that normally protects the aluminium from corrosion:
6 CH3OH + Al2O3 → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2O The resulting methoxide salts are soluble in methanol, resulting in a clean aluminium surface, which is readily oxidized by dissolved oxygen. Also, the methanol can act as an oxidizer:
6 CH3OH + 2 Al → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2 This reciprocal process effectively fuels corrosion until either the metal is eaten away or the concentration of CH3OH is negligible. Methanol's corrosivity has been addressed with methanol-compatible materials and fuel additives that serve as corrosion inhibitors.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Chevy71

I'm curious about the actual meth injection failures you mention hear. Just like you mentioned, no one else is speaking about that. In fact, all I hear is how great it works and wakes up the fuel system.

Meth injection is a stand alone supplemental fuel system, and will not boost your current fuel system.

When Meth injection works is works great, when it doesn't that is when catastrophe happens.

especially in cases where your relying on it for fuel supply because your on board fuel system is inadequate.

Stock LT-1 fuel system is done right around 575 RWHP

If you think you are going to make more than that upgrade the injectors and high pressure pump first then you can add meth injection for octane and cooling instead of supplemental fuel system.

[Atomic Ed]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Meth injection is a stand alone supplemental fuel system, and will not boost your current fuel system.

When Meth injection works is works great, when it doesn't that is when catastrophe happens.

especially in cases where your relying on it for fuel supply because your on board fuel system is inadequate.

Stock LT-1 fuel system is done right around 575 RWHP

If you think you are going to make more than that upgrade the injectors and high pressure pump first then you can add meth injection for octane and cooling instead of supplemental fuel system.

I'll chime in on this and say that I had water/meth injection on my Audi TT. After 2 pump failures, I pulled it off and re-tuned. I was lucky in that I caught both failures quickly before any issues.

Flammability and long term corrosion became a concern for me. IMHO, stay with a 30% meth to water mixture in that the flammability issue goes away.

As a side note, some folks tried injection pre-turbo and the results were almost funny if weren't for the cost to the individual. After about 1K miles, the compressor blades looked like a rat chewed on them

[Chevy71]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Meth injection is a stand alone supplemental fuel system, and will not boost your current fuel system.

When Meth injection works is works great, when it doesn't that is when catastrophe happens.

especially in cases where your relying on it for fuel supply because your on board fuel system is inadequate.

Stock LT-1 fuel system is done right around 575 RWHP

If you think you are going to make more than that upgrade the injectors and high pressure pump first then you can add meth injection for octane and cooling instead of supplemental fuel system.

When you say it's done at 575whp what is done? Do you lose low side PSI or only high side? I am seeing a lot of people in the 600's with no fuel issues and no fuel update. There is so much conflicting information on here it's hard to really know what to trust. I want to learn from others and their experiences, but I may just have to see it myself on the dyno.

[Chevy71]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

I doubt they're going to get into it, so I'll take a stab at it. If I've miss-stated anything, please feel free to jump in and correct me.

If you look at how meth injection works, you can see what he's talking about. The meth injected burns but doesn't detonate like normal gas would. When it burns the water released cools and it adds octane so you can run higher boost while on pump gas. When everything works, it's great, but that's assuming nothing ever goes wrong.

When you start looking at the LT1 engine and how they designed everything, including the spray pattern of the injectors, they've built it all to maximize every drop of fuel during combustion for a high compression engine. If you run out of meth or something malfunctions and it's not injected at the right time, you'll end up with severe detonation which is fatal to the engine. You're also relying on an aftermarket system to time the injection exactly right, in order, into the correct cylinder and all of this is happening very, very fast. It's not that it doesn't work, it's that there are a lot of variables for a daily driver/street car.

Here's some info I found online about the chemistry behind burning methanol fuel:

Methanol burns in oxygen, including open air, forming carbon dioxide and water:
2 CH3OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 4 H2O One problem with high concentrations of methanol in fuel is that alcohols corrode some metals, particularly aluminium. An acid, albeit weak, methanol attacks the oxide coating that normally protects the aluminium from corrosion:
6 CH3OH + Al2O3 → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2O The resulting methoxide salts are soluble in methanol, resulting in a clean aluminium surface, which is readily oxidized by dissolved oxygen. Also, the methanol can act as an oxidizer:
6 CH3OH + 2 Al → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2 This reciprocal process effectively fuels corrosion until either the metal is eaten away or the concentration of CH3OH is negligible. Methanol's corrosivity has been addressed with methanol-compatible materials and fuel additives that serve as corrosion inhibitors.

Thanks for the input. I don't like counting on meth as a bandaid to make up for a weak fuel system, but Inreally don't like the cost associated with buying the LT4 system knowing it's slightly better than what I have and I will reach the ceiling on that system shortly after mymLT1 system. It also sounds like you were describing port injection of the meth system? I thought it was injected through the intake and mixing with the cylinders by the air coming into the cylinders naturally. Not injected with each injector?

[Charlie540i]

Originally Posted by Chevy71

When you say it's done at 575whp what is done? Do you lose low side PSI or only high side? I am seeing a lot of people in the 600's with no fuel issues and no fuel update. There is so much conflicting information on here it's hard to really know what to trust. I want to learn from others and their experiences, but I may just have to see it myself on the dyno.

Do you understand the concept of happy dyno vs heartbreaker dyno vs normal dyno?

[Chevy71]

Originally Posted by Charlie540i

Do you understand the concept of happy dyno vs heartbreaker dyno vs normal dyno?

That's a really good point lol. Conditions when the dyno is being ran can help some too.

[toohighpsi]

Originally Posted by Chevy71

That's a really good point lol. Conditions when the dyno is being ran can help some too.

Very true, dyno corrections due to altitude don't require additional fuel