Kenne Bell sale for Camaro's

[sting808]

I got mine about 4 years ago. Got two intake pipes(v1 & v2) that fits like shit. Got told by KB my car is the problem and the bulge in the fender liner is normal. Had to mod my bypass pipe... I was told me fitment issues are normal with all aftermarket kits. I make 550 - 570whp, 550-560 torque on a conservative tune(14-15*) w/LT and 9.5-10 lbs boost, depending on iat and heat soak... 4-5 dyno sessions over 3 years.

When iat issue were brought up, KB got really defensive on C5. Now, they've "improved" their cooling on their kits and discounted the systems. Read the old threads from 2011-2012. May need to search by name since older threads may be archived.

In hindsight, I would prefer access to plugs over their "bling" factor. Need to remove compressor to get to injectors. Unit block AC lines. Forgot about an easy way to check #7 plug. Idle and drivability issues, they blame tuners. Then, they release v2 intake with repositioned MAF and honey comb insert air straightener. KB doesn't like constructive comments/criticism. These were old issues, but same people still run the company.

Makes power and bling to those who like the looks, but negatives out weighs positives for me. I should have done better research. I still have my 2.8lc, but not worth more $$$$ refining it. I don't drag and mainly autox. Anyone that considers KB needs to do their own assessment.

[reggie337]

I had no issues with my kb 2.8
although my car was a stick . It made sick power
704 to the wheels at 11psi with a futral cam and stock cube motor. Just bought a 4.2 for 427 build. Kb love here.

[DRV-AWAY]

I got 2.8L on my Camaro I like it so far

[RRTX-SS]

I just recently did my 416 build .....I had a 2.8 kenne bell sold it to step up to the 3.6lc. On 10 lbs it made 690rwhp and 700rwtq on a very conservative tune. I do have afco heat exchanger with dual fans to help keep iats lower. I do have meth injection as well, yet the iat still get high for my liking. I'm in the process of replacing intercooler to the updated version and direct port the meth rather than running it through the blower. So yes the blower gets hot, but it does make the power it really depends on how you plan to use the car as to which blower to purchase. My current setup is crazy torque starting as early as 2000rpm.......yes the spark plug changes are ridiculous but I relocated coils to make it easier. As far as tuning I don't know much on auto cars as mine is an m6. With all that said I still enjoy every bit of drive in it.

[Mike@KB]

Originally Posted by cc-rider

I'm a bit surprised at all the negative content on this site aimed at Kenne Bell?? I am new to Camaro building and this site (came from Mustangs)....and they have a stellar reputation in the Ford community for making awesome power.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of balanced level-headed content on this site about them. Lots of talk about IAT's being higher than others. The way I see it....boost is boost and working air to 8 psi creates heat no matter what the charger method (screw, roots, etc)....so then it's up to the intercooler to get it back down. Perhaps KB's cooler system wasn't up to snuff?

I see they are advertising a new "big gun" intercooler. When exactly did they launch this new cooler? Has anyone put on a KB with this new big gun cooler?

You bring up an interesting point about “boost and heat.” Boost always generates heat. As related to IAT via intercoolers and heat exchangers, there are a lot of vehicle dynamic variables. Therefore, what really matters is the amount of boost and HP a particular 6 or 9 psi kit reliably produces at WOT. Ambient, water temp, idling, cruising and dyno runs all have an effect on IAT’s! At Kenne Bell, we spend countless hours in the design, testing and optimization of intercooler systems for a variety of conditions. Our dyno room is now air conditioned and temperature controlled for higher dyno accuracy. You are absolutely right. It is all about boost, which is 20HP and 10° per psi, all else equal – and octane. Remember, that IAT can be academic if there is sufficient fuel octane. It is equally “all about octane.” With high octane fuel, IAT’s intercoolers and heat exchangers would not be necessary. Our tests indicate 1.5 octane is necessary to support 1 psi of boost. Example: Add 15 octane for 10 psi boost and power goes up 200HP (19 psi vs. 9 psi). And with E85, it can be a daily driver using low cost pump fuel. Even though the IAT is 100° hotter from the additional 10 psi boost, the higher 106 octane (91+15=106) protects the engine from detonation caused by heat. Also, the E85 cools the combustion chamber 35° while the fuel itself is good for 40HP in all our tests.

Remove the 9 psi intercooler and heat exchanger and try the simple test with higher octane fuel and NO other changes that might affect test accuracy. Surprisingly, the car will make MORE HP without the intercooler. Eliminating the intercooler “saves” the 1-3 psi parasitic boost/pressure loss through the intercooler and will increase engine output by 20-60HP (1-3 psi boost at 20HP/psi). As you stated, “boost is boost.” Also, a 1 psi boost reduction in intercooler loss is not only +20HP but 10° lower IAT (before intercooler) if you back the supercharger down 1 psi to the original boost.

Here are a couple of interesting examples: Removing an intercooler from a Camaro can result in +20HP but IAT’s, of course, rise. In some cases this has become an acceptable practice.
1. One of our test cars, Mark Meiering’s Shelby 5.4 makes 1749HP and turns 7.4 @ 191 with 32 psi and 400° 4.7LC discharge temps (32x10°+80° ambient). The new BIGUN intercooler drops the 1/4 mile IAT to 75° with only ice water without a heat exchanger while lowering boost loss by 2 psi/40HP vs. the stock intercooler.
2. This same engine developed 1749 during our testing on the engine dyno. The dyno water feeding the intercooler registered 90°. When switched to ice water, with no other changes, it produced the exact same 1749HP clearly proving IAT’s do not improve HP, even at this level.
3. The Camaro 4.7 supercharger kit we sent to Gray Motorsports for testing on a proposed new ProStock spec supercharged class is expected to produce 1600+HP – with the exact same “old style” Kenne Bell intercooler. Why? Cooling efficiency is less but air flow/boost is higher. Yep . . . “boost is boost” regardless of supercharger type. And intercoolers and inlet systems affect boost output – and IAT’s.

Finally, the boost you mention that is “lost” through an intercooler, less efficient inlet tract or hot underhood air can only be recouped by raising supercharger speed. That increases IAT by 10° per psi. So, you are right again. “It’s up to the intercooler to get it back down” – or keep it as low as possible to start with – or just eliminate it. The best approach depends on the application, the manufacturers design and your current and future HP goals. We believe our kits make more HP. If you prefer lower IAT then the new BIGUN may be for you.

In any event, all superchargers and turbos make good HP. There are just more options and improvements available today.

[Mike@KB]

It is nice to see we have some happy customers on Camaro 5. Unfortunately, we have a few old unhappy ones. For that I sincerely apologize. No supercharger company can claim 100% of their customers are happy all of the time. It is not my intent to rehash the past. Obviously, we had some issues with one of our early kits 4 years ago and our customers on Camaro 5 had a right to be dissatisfied. Here is what we have done since then to solve those issues:

DRIVEABILITY AND TUNE
Hundreds of kits (2.8, 3.6, 4.2 and 4.7) have been sold since the introduction back in 2010. Today, Camaro – along with our Ford and Dodge kit sales are at record levels. Some Ford, and now Camaro kits, are on sale for a limited time. We certainly recognize that a company cannot survive without long term customer satisfaction and support. We responded and did our best to rectify the issues on the relatively few vehicles. The upgraded parts – a Honeycomb air stream straightener, revised 4.5” pipe and new tune were all replaced years ago no charge. Our records show a total of 4 kits were upgraded. If anyone has an older pipe that is experiencing surging give us a call and we will send a replacement no charge. The basic driveability issue could not be solved with a “re-tune” by a tuner. Not their fault as a hardware fix was necessary. So both the customer and tuner were frustrated. And justifiably so. Again, 100% our fault. And it wasn’t like the cars were disabled. There was a minor surge at cruise.

4.5” INLET PIPE
Our Mustang and Dodge kits all share the low restriction high HP inlet concept. It is BIG, flows a lot of air and is designed to support larger supercharger upgrades and HP increases. As owner of Kenne Bell, I can assure everyone that this concept of supplying cool dense outside only air to the supercharger is here to stay. To reduce the air inlet location would be to say that this concept, used for so long by Musclecars and race cars – was wrong.

HEAT EXCHANGER AND INTERCOOLER
Yep, we are bullish on this subject. A couple of thousand dyno and street tests on our competition, aftermarket fans, ice cooler etc. on Camaro, Ford and Dodge street, strip and flying mile cars has resulted in some firm opinions at KB – and improvements to our kits. It’s a very complex interesting area where some compromises were made in the past on IAT vs. boost loss through the intercooler. Boost will be slightly less but cooling is improved. All kits shipped during the last 9 months use the new BIGUN. The result is a new BIGUN intercooler concept that incorporates an industry leading exclusive core design. ST Motorsports will be conducting tests next week on a 900+HP Camaro.

SPARK PLUG REPLACEMENT
We never did understand this complaint. You can still see all 8 plug locations. The supercharger doesn’t interfere with plug removal, the AC lines are in the stock location and the new intercooler hoses are easily moved aside. No more difficult than stock to replace.

NEW BIGUN INTERCOOLER
Our new design focused primarily on IAT at WOT/max boost at vehicle speed, as dyno testing alone cannot duplicate these conditions. IAT’s at cruise or idle are basically irrelevant with a Twin Screw. So we focused on improving IAT’s with minimum pressure/boost loss through the intercooler core. Mark Meiering’s 1749HP 5.4 Shelby turns 191/7.4 with our 4.7 BIGUN Kit, 33 psi and BIGUN Intercooler and no heat exchanger. IAT’s at the end of the 1/4 mile were data logged at a mere 75° with 400° supercharger discharge temps. It’s the same “Hi Density Core” technology used on our Camaro, Dodge and 5.0 Mustang. This isn’t a commercial. Just some insight into how far supercharging has progressed over the years. For most of us, what really matters is does the kit produce the advertised HP and room to grow with either higher octane fuel, water injection or E85 (+200HP with 20 psi).

I personally enjoy 3 100% stock motor KB 2.8 supercharged test cars – a ‘10 Camaro, ‘11 Mustang 5.0 and ‘14 Dodge. All produced over 600HP with our 9 psi kit and optional throttle body. Also, all three have been tested and driven at 600 and 800RWHP by media tech writers for magazine features that now appear on our website. The 800HP cars are equipped with larger injectors and a BOOST-A-PUMP to reach this level. No new expensive fuel systems. As you can see, Supercharging Technology has changed considerably the last 4 years – at relatively low cost. 200+HP on E85 pump gas, for example. IAT’s, although important, have never been the only important criteria. But we listened to our customers and improved the product.

HOW IT’S TESTED
We thought some insight on intercooler engineering might be interesting. Prototype intercoolers are developed with the help of a unique 2000HP rated flow bench. Air flow at .1-5 psi pressure drop is measured to determine ideal size, depth, fin count and rows, water cooling passages and temperature reduction. Each intercooler test unit has a dedicated bench box adaptor plate. Designs are then verified on the chassis and engine dynos.

[Synner]

The fact remains, blaming the customer and tuners instead of standing behind your product happened for years. You were adamant there were no issues, refused to even look into it, and that is not what most would expect from a stand-up company. People posted data and you claimed it was tuners trying to discredit you and your perfect product that could do no wrong. Changing those items now doesn't change how you as a company treated its customers then and many will remember that. There are many options available for FI so people are free to choose based upon track records of product quality and customer support.

[sick13ss1le]

i had a kb 2.8lc on my car just sold it and am going twin turbo. i was tired of stretching out belts every time i decided to actually play around

[cc-rider]

Originally Posted by Mike@KB

You bring up an interesting point about “boost and heat.” Boost always generates heat. As related to IAT via intercoolers and heat exchangers, there are a lot of vehicle dynamic variables. Therefore, what really matters is the amount of boost and HP a particular 6 or 9 psi kit reliably produces at WOT. Ambient, water temp, idling, cruising and dyno runs all have an effect on IAT’s! At Kenne Bell, we spend countless hours in the design, testing and optimization of intercooler systems for a variety of conditions. Our dyno room is now air conditioned and temperature controlled for higher dyno accuracy. You are absolutely right. It is all about boost, which is 20HP and 10° per psi, all else equal – and octane. Remember, that IAT can be academic if there is sufficient fuel octane. It is equally “all about octane.” With high octane fuel, IAT’s intercoolers and heat exchangers would not be necessary. Our tests indicate 1.5 octane is necessary to support 1 psi of boost. Example: Add 15 octane for 10 psi boost and power goes up 200HP (19 psi vs. 9 psi). And with E85, it can be a daily driver using low cost pump fuel. Even though the IAT is 100° hotter from the additional 10 psi boost, the higher 106 octane (91+15=106) protects the engine from detonation caused by heat. Also, the E85 cools the combustion chamber 35° while the fuel itself is good for 40HP in all our tests.

Remove the 9 psi intercooler and heat exchanger and try the simple test with higher octane fuel and NO other changes that might affect test accuracy. Surprisingly, the car will make MORE HP without the intercooler. Eliminating the intercooler “saves” the 1-3 psi parasitic boost/pressure loss through the intercooler and will increase engine output by 20-60HP (1-3 psi boost at 20HP/psi). As you stated, “boost is boost.” Also, a 1 psi boost reduction in intercooler loss is not only +20HP but 10° lower IAT (before intercooler) if you back the supercharger down 1 psi to the original boost.

Here are a couple of interesting examples: Removing an intercooler from a Camaro can result in +20HP but IAT’s, of course, rise. In some cases this has become an acceptable practice.
1. One of our test cars, Mark Meiering’s Shelby 5.4 makes 1749HP and turns 7.4 @ 191 with 32 psi and 400° 4.7LC discharge temps (32x10°+80° ambient). The new BIGUN intercooler drops the 1/4 mile IAT to 75° with only ice water without a heat exchanger while lowering boost loss by 2 psi/40HP vs. the stock intercooler.
2. This same engine developed 1749 during our testing on the engine dyno. The dyno water feeding the intercooler registered 90°. When switched to ice water, with no other changes, it produced the exact same 1749HP clearly proving IAT’s do not improve HP, even at this level.
3. The Camaro 4.7 supercharger kit we sent to Gray Motorsports for testing on a proposed new ProStock spec supercharged class is expected to produce 1600+HP – with the exact same “old style” Kenne Bell intercooler. Why? Cooling efficiency is less but air flow/boost is higher. Yep . . . “boost is boost” regardless of supercharger type. And intercoolers and inlet systems affect boost output – and IAT’s.

Finally, the boost you mention that is “lost” through an intercooler, less efficient inlet tract or hot underhood air can only be recouped by raising supercharger speed. That increases IAT by 10° per psi. So, you are right again. “It’s up to the intercooler to get it back down” – or keep it as low as possible to start with – or just eliminate it. The best approach depends on the application, the manufacturers design and your current and future HP goals. We believe our kits make more HP. If you prefer lower IAT then the new BIGUN may be for you.

In any event, all superchargers and turbos make good HP. There are just more options and improvements available today.

Thanks for posting here. 2 great posts from Kenne Bell...in my opinion. I'm excited to see some results on this new Big Gun cooler...and I suppose I might be the one to buy and test this out real soon! Good to see you guys making improvements to the KB kit.

Just need to decide on which one to go with!!?? I'm highly tempted to take a shot with KB and this new big gun cooler.

[old motorhead]

Originally Posted by cc-rider

Thanks for posting here. 2 great posts from Kenne Bell...in my opinion. I'm excited to see some results on this new Big Gun cooler...and I suppose I might be the one to buy and test this out real soon! Good to see you guys making improvements to the KB kit.

Just need to decide on which one to go with!!?? I'm highly tempted to take a shot with KB and this new big gun cooler.

You've had some pretty sharp guys with hands on experience tell you to look at other options. There are some really great top mounts, front mounts, and turbo systems available with EXCELLENT track records. Why you would even consider one with a less than a stellar track record is beyond me. But, maybe you just need a challenge. Me, I just like to drive the hell out of them....not constantly tinker, adjust, modify......Get a Whipple, Maggie, ECS, AGP, kit and all the upgrades have already been done for you. Bolt it on, tune it, and go have fun.

Life can be hard. Make bad decisions and it gets way harder.

Happy turkey day guys

[Jared91]

Well said. ^^^

[camarossdusk]

drive the crap out of my whipple never had any problems, have had mine on since may.

[Baltimorejohn1]

The 2014 Camaro SS can anything over the 2.8 fit under the hood?

[cc-rider]

Originally Posted by old motorhead

You've had some pretty sharp guys with hands on experience tell you to look at other options. There are some really great top mounts, front mounts, and turbo systems available with EXCELLENT track records. Why you would even consider one with a less than a stellar track record is beyond me. But, maybe you just need a challenge. Me, I just like to drive the hell out of them....not constantly tinker, adjust, modify......Get a Whipple, Maggie, ECS, AGP, kit and all the upgrades have already been done for you. Bolt it on, tune it, and go have fun.

Life can be hard. Make bad decisions and it gets way harder.

Happy turkey day guys

I hear you. Good comments. However, the part that is starting to bother me is that whenever Kenne Bell comes up there are so many people that throw them under the bus so quickly...it just strikes me as odd. Maybe for some of you who have been hanging around here for a few years you are used to it. But for a newcomer...it immediately strikes me as way over the top. So then I do some searching....and it seems to all be about IAT's. And then I search some more and find the same people 3 years ago praising and living their Kenne Bell only to find out them lampooning them later. And then I read how everyone loves the Magnuson and nobody can ever go wrong with it or a Whipple. But then I go and do some searches titled "magnuson IAT" and "whipple IAT" and what do you think I find? A ton of threads with people also complaining about temps with them too. But those threads seems to be helpful and cooperative nod understanding that superchargers make heat and everyone tries to help out with ways to lower temps while still praising the blower. But then I flip back to Kenne Bell threads and they get lampooned immediately??? Just go look at post #2 in this thread....

?????

Oh well....trust me, I am not here to support Kenne Bell. I still am considering all options. The front runners are a Magnuson, AGP TT, and (god forbid) the Kenne Bell.

Good discussion. I really appreciate all opinions. But some of the KB hatred surely is a bit out of line here.