[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by MatthewAMEL

Totally legit.

I am certain that I do not push as hard as you or Ryan or others. My DTCs lasted me this entire season and I only went through two sets of OEM tires.

I will resume shutting up and learning something every time I read this forum.

No reason to be overly modest, or worse: feel bullied. I've tried several pads in my "career" and also happen to think stockers are very good pads. Are there better? Most likely and DTC60s seem to be well liked by folks that push very hard at a vast variety of venues vs just 1 or 2. Having said that, I run pretty hard, at variety of track venues, in top groups, with 30min sessions being a norm. Zero issues.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Cem, what exactly do you mean "it has been explained many times..." this was due to my driving style? Where the heck do you get this from? I'd respectfully suggest you re-read my responses in this thread. And why would you keep recommending pads you don't use yourself on the 1LE? Pads that you have admitted to getting fade on? Like I said, they might work just fine at some venues which permit proper cooling. Some may like them but it all depends on variables involved.

I am absolutely with Mathew: at 5 different venues the stock pads worked great for me: great rotor wear, zero fade, last 5 days and stop the car just fine. And unlike you I don't run "cooling laps" in a middle of any sessions as groups that I run with don't permit such behaviour. I welcome responses as to why anyone may think they are somehow "inferior". High torque does not define how good a pad is for HPDE! Heat generation, longevity and rotor wear does.

To the OP: before you blow big $ changing a whole system, try different pads as ST43 throws a ton of heat IMO. Much more then any other pad I've tried. If you wish to stick to ST family, ask Cem what he runs and try it. BTW what track(s) do you run at? They may have a lot to do with the type of pad that will work best for ya. Or try Hawk as recommended above: haven't heard any negative
responses about them either. Having said that, if $ is no object, do upgrade to 1LE so you can run inexpensive 18 Apex rims. But be careful what pads you stick on as your problem may return

What makes you think that I would recommend something that I don't use on my car? I clearly stated that I wanted to try the ST47/ST45 combo just to see how they feel not because ST43s are inferior. I will most likely switch back to ST43s once these are done as ST43s were just perfect and I like to idea of using same compound front and rear. You just use my words out of context.

Myself and few others on that thread mentioned that any pad will fade after a certain point reached and driving style ("over braking") has a lot to do with that. Majority of the people who used ST43s been very happy with them and surprisingly(!) they are the ones who find the OEM pads inadequate for heavy track use. Is that a coincidence? Maybe

And lastly, Is it possible that we don't hijack this thread and turn into another "pad" discussion? This has been discussed to death (on your thread that I gave link to and many others)

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

No reason to be overly modest, or worse: feel bullied. I've tried several pads in my "career" and also happen to think stockers are very good pads. Are there better? Most likely and DTC60s seem to be well liked by folks that push very hard at a vast variety of venues vs just 1 or 2. Having said that, I run pretty hard, at variety of track venues, in top groups, with 30min sessions being a norm. Zero issues.

Wow!! "I am speechless, I have no speech"

[MatthewAMEL]

Hey, everyone.

Just for the record. I didn't feel 'bullied'. I acknowledged that I haven't run the ST43 pads in question on my 1LE.

I also have been doing this long enough to understand that brake pad 'feel' is very subjective and dependent on driving style. I am conservative on track. I am rarely comfortable running 10/10ths. Lots of other people think running anything but 10/10ths is a waste of time and I get that.

Like others have said to the OP. Try a different pad before swapping the entire system.

[TrackClub]

Cem, discussing pads is very relative to the OP's issue (vs hijacking) and I am not the only one that recommended that he tries a different pad before upgrading rotors/calipers. I have yet to fade the stock pads, yet I don't do cool down laps, so clearly I am not over braking and they can stand up to 30 min sessions just fine. No, they don't have as much initial torque at ST43s but if one adjusts for that they work very well indeed and permit fast pace nevertheless.

I haven't read a single post dissing stock pads as inadequate for track duty, even by those that switched to ST43. They may prefer the latter and I understand that, but then there are folks that have switched BACK to stock pads (from other brands) even on a faster and heavier ZL1.
So we can make this argument until cows come home.

Also note, statistically, there are just a few guys here including you and me. So statistically there are 3 or 4 folks that like ST43s and there are 2 guys that smoked the $hit of out them.
That's a fact. And likely it was because of venues not driving styles, or implied lack of user skill, etc.
And likely it was because ST43 has the lowest fade resistance of any non street ST pad.

If you ever take your car to a track which requires hard braking at most (vs 2 or 3) corners with little to no cooling opportunity you'll see what I mean and what may possibly happen to your ST43s. Until then we are comparing apples to oranges. And as I had said, ST43s may very well have worked just fine for me at a different track. But NOT where I tested them.

As to my reply to your response to Mathew leaving you speechless, imagine how yours must have made him feel. Regardless, it upset me to read it, hence my reply in his defense, as I happen to agree with his posts. This is such a fantastic forum, let's behave and agree to disagree if necessary vs having to prove the other party wrong only because their experience, or opinions differ.

Cheers!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by MatthewAMEL

Hey, everyone.

Just for the record. I didn't feel 'bullied'. I acknowledged that I haven't run the ST43 pads in question on my 1LE.

I also have been doing this long enough to understand that brake pad 'feel' is very subjective and dependent on driving style. I am conservative on track. I am rarely comfortable running 10/10ths. Lots of other people think running anything but 10/10ths is a waste of time and I get that.

Like others have said to the OP. Try a different pad before swapping the entire system.

I am glad you did not, albeit your reply suggested you were shut down pretty good. I ran ST43 on my 1LE and so did another owner (albeit conveniently omitted) and we both had very similar experiences on short tracks with little cooling opportunities.

Insinuations of lack of skill aside, I too think the stock Ferodo is a better pad for a wide choice of different venues. I have zero reservations saying it successfully running it at 3 GP style and 2 short tracks this past season. But I will test DTC60 next season. And if I were to try ST again, it surely would be a different compound. Based on were I run. Others may be happy with whatever, based on where they run.

Trying a different pad makes most sense to me as step #1. Just like if we don't like the tires we shouldn't immediately switch wheels...

[OminouSS]

There should be an option in the thread title that identifies the exact point at which it was rendered useless. You know, once it completely leaves the rails? OP, sent you a PM. Brakes are a big deal on this car for many drivers.

[Dwille]

Originally Posted by OminouSS

There should be an option in the thread title that identifies the exact point at which it was rendered useless. You know, once it completely leaves the rails? OP, sent you a PM. Brakes are a big deal on this car for many drivers.

I agree. From my experience brakes are a big deal. OP, I had the same issue with my 5th gen SS 1LE. I tried adding cooling and different pads. It helped but wasn't enough. I switched to the 5th gen ZL1 6 piston setup and my problem was instantly solved. Fast forward to today, I really like the brakes on my 6th gen ZL1 and have had no issues. I can get pad fade on the factory pads, especially as they get towards 1/2 way worn down, but it isn't bad and they come back after a brief cool down. I am in the process of trying some different pads with higher temperature capability (the tracks I have been on so far are relatively easy on brakes).

One of the cool things about Camaro's is that you have factory upgrade paths available. I think you will be happy with either 6 piston setup. I would lean towards the ZL1 brakes. The downside is consumables (pads/rotors) will cost more.

Just my opinion based on my experience. YMMV and all that. Let us know which you chose and how you like them.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Cem, discussing pads is very relative to the OP's issue (vs hijacking) and I am not the only one that recommended that he tries a different pad before upgrading rotors/calipers. I have yet to fade the stock pads, yet I don't do cool down laps, so clearly I am not over braking and they can stand up to 30 min sessions just fine. No, they don't have as much initial torque at ST43s but if one adjusts for that they work very well indeed and permit fast pace nevertheless.

I haven't read a single post dissing stock pads as inadequate for track duty, even by those that switched to ST43. They may prefer the latter and I understand that, but then there are folks that have switched BACK to stock pads (from other brands) even on a faster and heavier ZL1.
So we can make this argument until cows come home.

Also note, statistically, there are just a few guys here including you and me. So statistically there are 3 or 4 folks that like ST43s and there are 2 guys that smoked the $hit of out them.
That's a fact. And likely it was because of venues not driving styles, or implied lack of user skill, etc.
And likely it was because ST43 has the lowest fade resistance of any non street ST pad.

If you ever take your car to a track which requires hard braking at most (vs 2 or 3) corners with little to no cooling opportunity you'll see what I mean and what may possibly happen to your ST43s. Until then we are comparing apples to oranges. And as I had said, ST43s may very well have worked just fine for me at a different track. But NOT where I tested them.

As to my reply to your response to Mathew leaving you speechless, imagine how yours must have made him feel. Regardless, it upset me to read it, hence my reply in his defense, as I happen to agree with his posts. This is such a fantastic forum, let's behave and agree to disagree if necessary vs having to prove the other party wrong only because their experience, or opinions differ.

Cheers!

Well, guess what? OP himself already mentioned that he prefers ST43s and he ran out brakes (XP10s)!! that you called it "better" or "more fade resistant" than the ST43s on your "cooked the magic" thread..

You may see it yourself (post #89) and I quote below:

I think everybody already agreed that it's a lot about drive style and the track.
Last month I was at Summit Point (regular 4 pistons SS). Ran ST43 with RE71R. Got great performance and set a new PB (1.249) . On the third day of the weekend I had to replace my ST43 with my spare XP10 (long story, got tapered pads because I did not place the retainer clip correctly on the caliper).
Lap time got worst by 2 seconds and I ran out of brakes mid session on the front straight (140 MPH to 45MPH) . I got lucky and just ended up in a mud bath.

PS- I had no fade issue in the past at the same track with XP12, however they were all gone after 2 days.

I get it, you may not remember that but why do you automatically assume he may seek help/advice from us? Makes even more ironic when you claim we do
"

Insinuations of lack of skill aside

". Since he already created a thread about bigger front brake kits and mentioned that he thinks he has insufficient brakes, I would assume he already knows brakes are the achilles heel on this car and he's already on the right track.

Also, I already apologized Matthew in case I sounded weird not sure why do you keep bringing things like that I never intended to say or other people think? I also don't understand why do you get offended when people say it may have to due with the driving style? I don't recall anyone implied anything about the skill level at all.

I am personally only concerned with the facts and trying to do my best not to spread the wrong information. Facts and opinions are not interchangeable, "OEM pad or XP10s are more fade resistance than the ST series pads" is just an opinion, a wrong one but not the fact. That's all I am saying.

Back to topic, if fitting the ZL1 brakes into an 18" wheels is an option I would go that route if not I would go with SS 1LE brakes. The advantage of the 18" wheels is so much in my opinion and should also help reducing the rotational mass (whopping 15 lbs on each corner with some light R comps) which will eventually help on the brakes also. Fitting ZL1 brakes on 18" wheels would be best of both worlds of course. I wonder how much do they weigh over the SS 1LE brakes

[TrackClub]

Cem, the OP describes a classic case of too much pad for the rotor and cooling. Norm was the first to question what pad he's using. And Norm is a smart guy Apart from the BBK/wheels discussion 3 folks suggested (right on page 1) that the pads could be the culprit of his issues. Mbar himself then pointed to them tapering, having rotor issues etc. Hence pads would be the first change I'd follow. IMO.

As to XP10, I do recall it, but they were his "spare set". How much meat was left on them? Did he clean the ST43 from the rotors? Did he re-bed them? Etc? Mbar knows, but neither you nor I know. NB I used to run XP10s and do 45min competitive sprints on them and never ran out of brakes. Albeit on a lighter car, but on slicks.

As far as driving style, you left "venue" out of the comment. That's crucial as usually it is the circuit layout that's responsible for high brake wear, unless somebody is a novice and can't adjust their braking et al to a higher torque pad. But I suspect this is not the case here and besides if somebody frequents venues easy on brakes they probably won't notice any issues regardless of "driving style".

As far as facts: they only hold water when measured at the same venue for the reasons stated above. But it is a fact, supported by the manufacturer, that ST43 *specifically" has the lowest resistance to fade of all ST non street pads.
Yet they are a high torque pad, meaning they will throw much heat. If somebody runs them at a venue that doesn't permit them to cool down sufficiently, they will overheat and fade faster than other pads. Or at minimum they will heat up the whole system more than other pads. And note that Mbar mentioned "heat" in his OP. And you did admit to getting some fade on them.

On a personal level, you seem to "jump" on anyone that dislikes ST43 notwithstanding their actual experience with the pad differs from your own. Like I said, the pad may work just fine for some, but not all. And personally I think it is type of venue related. Even pro teams swap pads as necessary as part of a car's overall set up according to a venue.

So, unless you own shares in the company, then perhaps more open minded acceptance that not everyone may share your own experiences with ST43 would be appropriate?. And the fact they had bad experiences, or don't like them shouldn't automatically make them wrong, lacking experience, or somehow being at fault.

If we can't state our actual experiences for the benefit of the members without fear of being accused of errors or incompetence, then this forum will only be as good as its PM feature..


Peace bro!

[mbar]

Good morning guys,
First of all let me thank you all for helping out.
I agree that changing the pads might help, but at this point it will be like using a band-aid. The second that I'll get more seat time and go faster I'll be back at the same point. After all the conversations above I think I'll try out the ZL1 kit, since some people at some tracks with the 1LE kit still had issues. The temporary issue with the ZL1 kit is low pads variety ( I think it's the same pads as 2016 CTS-V).
For now I have the winter to stew and do lots of bench racing...
Cheers

[bensf]

Originally Posted by mbar

Good morning guys,
First of all let me thank you all for helping out.
I agree that changing the pads might help, but at this point it will be like using a band-aid. The second that I'll get more seat time and go faster I'll be back at the same point. After all the conversations above I think I'll try out the ZL1 kit, since some people at some tracks with the 1LE kit still had issues. The temporary issue with the ZL1 kit is low pads variety ( I think it's the same pads as 2016 CTS-V).
For now I have the winter to stew and do lots of bench racing...
Cheers

You're a smarter man than me. When tracking the Boxster Spyder, I chased bigger rotors, pads, titanium shims, brake fluids, cooling ducts and I still boiled the brakes on every track day once I became fast. The situation was even worse @ Laguna Seca since it's extremely harsh on brakes. In fact I destroyed 3 sets of oem calipers over a 3 year period Going to a 996 GT3 bbk solved all my problems. I would have saved a ton of money and time if I had just done that at the beginning. Good luck

[OminouSS]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

... then this forum will only be as good as its PM feature..

At least there can be some sort of productive conclusion for the OP if taken ex parte. These threads have been losing their way more & more with the eristic take-overs. Too bad because this was a very good question.

If you are the kind of guy who must have the last word in any debate, then ask yourself one simple question: "How does my response solely serve the interest of the original post?" If it does not, then you just committed the worst type of thread-jack and made the discussion about you...

Glad you found a way to navigate the chatter Mbar. I think you'll be very happy with the bigger brakes. Now you can join the rotor/caliper/pad size confusion. lol.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by OminouSS

At least there can be some sort of productive conclusion for the OP if taken ex parte. These threads have been losing their way more & more with the eristic take-overs. Too bad because this was a very good question.

If you are the kind of guy who must have the last word in any debate, then ask yourself one simple question: "How does my response solely serve the interest of the original post?" If it does not, then you just committed the worst type of thread-jack and made the discussion about you...

Glad you found a way to navigate the chatter Mbar. I think you'll be very happy with the bigger brakes. Now you can join the rotor/caliper/pad size confusion. lol.

Of course it is all about me

But seriously, if a prior response hijacks the thread, x-references my own OP discussion and misrepresents it - then I will chime in.

Obviously, you run your ZL1 often and hard, so why not share your brake experiences here?
Clearly it would provide a huge value to the community et al to have another data point?
What difference does it make value wise to the OP if you provide the info to him via PM or openly here? Zero difference to him, but a huge difference to anyone that will ever read this thread.

That was my point, which was not directed at you per se, but how our behaviour to each other could potentially affect willingness to ask questions and offer opinions in general.

As such I do hope you'll share your info. Cheers!