[SleepWarz]

Yeah but its like every post thats longer than this that it happens. =p

Its ok though, some of mine are better gone then remaining heh.

[AngryAmish]

1. Don't forget cost of living, which differs in different parts of the country.

2. The article says that the concessions *****included***** frozen payscale and a $3/hour paycut. That doesn't mean those were the only sticking points.

I personally don't know what it costs to live in Michigan, and I don't know how much they make an hour. But what I do know is the next time I hear someone say they make $75/hour I'm going to beat the person to death with a wet noodle. The $75/hour figure includes more than just their payscale and medical. It also includes their pension, AD&D insurance, etc.


The biggest problem with our whole economic system is life expectancy, and its continuing trend upwards. Companies are paying pensions longer. That coupled with the fact people just simply won't retire in this country throws things out of wack. Thats the biggest reason you can't get a decent job Blur. If people retired when their pensions were maxed out, and companies could get some young blood in there at a starting salary instead of paying the usual suspects at top rate, it would make a big differance.

I may sound more than a bit callous for saying that, and I'm not wishing death on anyone. Just pointing out a simple fact. I've always been in favor of forced retirement when you reach your pension maximum.

You can almost liken the The United States job market to a highway. It would run smoothly, except for that old dude doing 35 in the hammerlane.

[sales@spencershids.com]

I see both sides of both of these. I work in a trade I went to college for. I hate what I do so I feel like college was a waste for me.

As far as this union issue, I'd like to see GM open a plant somewhere where people are willing to work for FAIR pay. Michigan's unemployment rate is highest in the country. Unions arent GM's only problem, but they are a large portion of it. I'd like to see the union done away with and people kept because they perform their job well. Overall, I'm against the union idea, and part of that is because i want the person who is working next to me to be a good worker, not good at politics.

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by AngryAmish

I personally don't know what it costs to live in Michigan, and I don't know how much they make an hour. But what I do know is the next time I hear someone say they make $75/hour I'm going to beat the person to death with a wet noodle. The $75/hour figure includes more than just their payscale and medical. It also includes their pension, AD&D insurance, etc.


The biggest problem with our whole economic system is life expectancy, and its continuing trend upwards. Companies are paying pensions longer. That coupled with the fact people just simply won't retire in this country throws things out of wack. Thats the biggest reason you can't get a decent job Blur. If people retired when their pensions were maxed out, and companies could get some young blood in there at a starting salary instead of paying the usual suspects at top rate, it would make a big differance.

I may sound more than a bit callous for saying that, and I'm not wishing death on anyone. Just pointing out a simple fact. I've always been in favor of forced retirement when you reach your pension maximum.

1. That's what I said, $75/hour including benefits.

2. So is GM's problem that people are collecting benefits for too long, or that they don't start soon enough. You argued for both.

3. Forced retirement? I'm speechless (and just broke out in a cold sweat).

[Motown Machine]

Originally Posted by sales@spencershids.com

I see both sides of both of these. I work in a trade I went to college for. I hate what I do so I feel like college was a waste for me.

As far as this union issue, I'd like to see GM open a plant somewhere where people are willing to work for FAIR pay. Michigan's unemployment rate is highest in the country. Unions arent GM's only problem, but they are a large portion of it. I'd like to see the union done away with and people kept because they perform their job well. Overall, I'm against the union idea, and part of that is because i want the person who is working next to me to be a good worker, not good at politics.

Respectfully, I'd like to disagree on the large portion part. In actuality, we must look at the big picture here. These problems stem back to the 1970s. The Big 3 companies had a holier-than-thou attitude in the thought that they were untouchable, and could do whatever they wanted because, well, they could.

The poster child of this all was Roger Smith. He wasn't a businessman, he was an accountant. An accountant's approach to vehicle manufacturing was roughly 'Let's build the same kind of car, using the cheapest of materials, re-badge it Chevy, Olds, Buick, Cadillac, etc., and sell it to the masses. This continued into the 1990's. The people on top figured that the people would come buy their products regardless, because the elite viewed the customers as sheep. How wrong they were.

The problem was basically telling people what they wanted instead of catering to what people wanted....which is exactly how the Asian manufacturers asserted their dominance in the industry. People started buying Asian vehicles, and their commitment to those vehicles quickly became next to unshakable. Trust me, it disturbs me seeing a lot of older folks driving around in their Toyotas on Hondas when they obviously didn't grow up on them. Ya know?

Long story short, my personal view is that the leadership of the Big 3 companies have and deserve the lion's share of the blame for the obvious reasons of not caring enough to cater to the consumer. The UAW is to blame, but not as much as people like to say. Said arrogant company leadership negotiated the uncompetitive contracts with the Union. They weren't strongarmed into anything. To me, it seems that the UAW folk are the convenient scapegoats of all the problems of the domestic auto industry. The problem with the UAW isn't the workers, it's the leadership.

Reuther-esque tactics should be a thing of the past. Its in the Union's best interest to work with the companies, like what is Gettelfinger's view. Gettelfinger basically realized that in order for the Union to survive, the companies must survive. As a result in the last five years or so, bankruptcies notwithstanding, the Big 3 are in a much better position to compete. I mean hell, at least 300,000 'overpaid' workers left the companies in the past three-four years or so, so why would they still be losing money?

They are finally getting the hint that you have to build things that consumers want and are appealed to. Twenty years too late, but at least they are getting on track.

GM and Ford have exciting, competitive new lineups, and Chrysler will come around soon enough. That being said, I really think that the UAW being to blame for bringing down the companies holds very little water for aforementioned reasons.

I agree that it's wrong to resist something like the $3 pay cut, but once again it's part of the BS that's fed to the workers from the Union leadership. I make enough money, I could survive a $3 pay cut. If people can raise a family on $14/hr, then I as an individual could tolerate making 'only' $25. Those people need to get a life.

My job's a blessing, and I work extremely hard at it, and physically am paying the price for it. 95% of the people I work with work their tail off as well, then you have the small percentage that are lazy and try and get out of work, but that's something that's dealt with in any working environment.

Sorry for the ramble, I hope I didn't stir anything up, just wanted to share my honest views and opinions.

My .02

[Revo1]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

Amen. I don't even have a H.S. diploma and I make a bit over six figures annually. The only people still pushing college are those that work in education and those that don't understand NAFTA and CAFTA.

Its morning in America and if your job is capable of being shipped overseas or done by illegal aliens you better be willing to work cheap. Most of the college educated folks in our country work on Wall Street now defrauding investors.

My advice is learn a skill and stop picking on the working class in our country.

What do you do, if I may ask...

[Number 3]

It's all too easy to blame GM management or the UAW for GMs problems. To the poster that blamed Roger Smith, as he did some bad things he did some good things as well. Ron Zirella (sic) from Proctor and Gamble running GM Marketing was probably a bigger mistake.

I grew up in Flint, my grandfather worked for GM during the famous sit down strike. I heard the stories of the guys that kept coffee cans at their work stations so they didn't have to leave for the restroom. If you did that you came back and found out you no longer had a job.

And my father who was a General Foreman for GM for most of his career used to tell me that most guys just wanted to earn a good days living for hard day on the job. And only a small percent were the "vocal union men".

My only real beef with the UAW has been the lack of understanding that they work for GM, not the UAW. The Union demanded and got a lot of benefits that just couldn't be afforded.

And in the end, just having Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Isuzu, etc. in the market would mean less share and fewere sales. But most of those generous benefits negotiated by the Union are fixed costs, not per car sold costs. So the money has to come from somewhere and for a while in the 80s and 90s that came from the product.

The need to pay the salaries and benefits is part of the reason parst were sourced to cheap labot countries, Mexico, China and others.

When the benefits were given, there were more workers than retirees. And with the market share GM had you could probably justify it. But today, GM has less than 100,000 employees in the U.S. and 4 or 5 times that in retirees.

We all watched as the airlines went under due to their legacy costs. But the difference there was Japan, Korea and Germany couldn't just come in and take domestric routes. Those were protected. Those countries major airlines (JAL, Leufthansa, etc.) could fly here but that was all. GM, Ford and Chrysler didn't have even that luxury.

So it is what it is. If you watched the Olympics, you saw a ton of wonderful new buildings in Beijing. Many no doubt paid for with our money. And yes wouldn't it be great if the money stayed here and our people had the jobs to build them.

I gave up some time ago on the American People coming to that conclusion. I hope I am someday proven wrong.

[vsound]

A bit off topic, but a word of encouragement:

Everyone with a college degree that graduated recently: You have to remember that we entered the work force at the worst possible time. Had you picked up another trade, you would have seen similarities in how hard it is to make a buck.

I don't believe I am better than anyone else because I have a college degree, but I do get upset when people think it means nothing.

For example, I had a guy working on a lighting fixture at my house a year or two back. He asked my major, and I told him I was studying history. What does he do? He starts claiming to know all this stuff and throwing theories out there regarding politics and history. Most of the stuff he said was idiotic, but he was arguing with me vehemently within 5 minutes.

So, let's make a deal.

I won't tell you how to install a light fixture if you don't argue with me with the knowledge you got from the history channel last night. The only way to be knowledgeable in that kind of field is to go to university and spend years with directed study over your readings. I think that's fair.

[motorhead]

GM didn't go bankrupt because of labor being to high. They went bankrupt because they lost sight of what people wanted in a car. For years the only way they could sell cars was to offer them at huge discounts. Look at toyota and honda over the last twenty years. They didn't need to offer big discounts to sell their cars because they made cars people wanted. With the market share shrinking in order to make money you have to make more profit per car. GM wasn't able to do that. They were loosing market share along with making less per car. This is a recipe for bankruptcy and failure that no business can sustain. I wonder how many CEO's and upper management are willing to take a large pay cut for the good of the company. Oh that's right, they don't have to their jobs are protected. The big picture that is really causing this environment is political which I know we can't discus here. But I will say it's not the fact that American workers making these cars are making to much.

[MikesZ]

Last time I checked, the non-union US workers at the US-based Honda, Toyota and Hyundai plants were not complaining...and those companies seem to have no problem finding US workers who are willing to work for the plant wages that are being offered.

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by SleepWarz

Sigh, I know my post will just get deleted....

But just because somebody wasted their time getting educated does not mean they deserve to work more than anyone else.
Same deal with the union... GM should tell them to take the $3 pay cut before it becomes $5.

I don't know - I agree with you to a point, but there gets to be a point also where the level of education required to do a certain job really does merit a higher salary for that person.

Take for example a Doctor (of medicine) - these people go to college for four years to get a bachelors degree, then another four years of medical school, usually followed by a three to seven year residency, and occasionally (depending on specialty) a one to four year fellowship.

So, these people go to college for at least eight years, more often eleven, and even as many as nineteen. And you don't believe these people deserve to get paid more than somebody who went to a technical school, or else learned their skill through on the job training?

I'm sorry - I appreciate the value of skilled labor. Without it we would go nowhere as a species. However, without educated people we would go nowhere as well. And there gets to be a point where those people willing to get that education do deserve to be paid more for their efforts.
- X

[klatterblast]

Originally Posted by SleepWarz

Sigh, I know my post will just get deleted....

But just because somebody wasted their time getting educated does not mean they deserve to work more than anyone else.
Same deal with the union... GM should tell them to take the $3 pay cut before it becomes $5.

i cant say what i want but maybe quit bringing up these threads. when my field of work did not pay good i went and mowed the fields and made about 60 k a year or so till i started a flooring company. we only have ourself to blame for our financial situations when there are so many ways to make money in america we just have to get our hands dirty and make something happen cant depend on what may or may not fall in our laps. i would not want to take a pay cut but if i did and could not live the way i want it would be time to move on and find greener fields.

[nasty2ss]

Originally Posted by SS 376

Sometimes I think college is an oversold idea in this country. What's the point of graduating with no job and thousands in student loan debt? I read a stat somewhere that 40-60% of all student loans are either in deferment or default.

[vsound]

For what it is worth, the statistic is that if you are college educated, you make $1 million more throughout your lifetime.

That may change, but who knows.