[redcoats1976]

i will never forget the time my family was driving to florida in moms 66 ford country squire wagon(yeah,the size of a cruise ship with fake wood sides.)they had just switched drivers and dad was ragging her because she normally drove the speed limit and he wanted to get there faster.she burned rubber coming unto I-95 and had it up to 92 in a 70 before getting pulled about a half mile down the road.she wished someone had warned her...it was pretty fast for a big ol waggoon.

[6sigma]

I'm already resigned to the fact that there won't be a gen7 ICE Camaro. I'm mostly OK with an electric Camaro too. But I'm not OK with a sedan Camaro. Why not keep the Camaro as a 2-door sports car EV and make the EV sedans Cadillac or new Impala, etc? Maybe because there is no performance penalty with a 4-door car versus a 2-door so why not have the larger market.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by 6sigma

I'm already resigned to the fact that there won't be a gen7 ICE Camaro. I'm mostly OK with an electric Camaro too. But I'm not OK with a sedan Camaro. Why not keep the Camaro as a 2-door sports car EV and make the EV sedans Cadillac or new Impala, etc? Maybe because there is no performance penalty with a 4-door car versus a 2-door so why not have the larger market.

I think this will totally flop.


Lets make a guess what quarterly sales will be for this! If you think the 6th gen is already bad.


And the Mustang Mach-E give it a couple years. I suspect when the newness wears off on it the sales will drop like a rock. The regular style Mustang will continue to sell well though. IMO the 4 door Mach E will go away eventually because people will favor the normal Mustang.

[Envious_Ivy1LE]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

I think this will totally flop.


Lets make a guess what quarterly sales will be for this! If you think the 6th gen is already bad.


And the Mustang Mach-E give it a couple years. I suspect when the newness wears off on it the sales will drop like a rock. The regular style Mustang will continue to sell well though. IMO the 4 door Mach E will go away eventually because people will favor the normal Mustang.

I can't say I agree with that. EV sales are pretty much going to be entirely intertwined with Tesla success and they seem to be gaining traction. Especially as the younger people start getting into the buying age.

[396ssrat]

An electric Camaro at a drag strip, a circle track or a road coursewould be like watching a good movie on mute. Be kind like watching a Golf game. Lmao
They already have an electric Caddy sedan so don't waste your money Mary.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

I think this will totally flop.


Lets make a guess what quarterly sales will be for this! If you think the 6th gen is already bad.


And the Mustang Mach-E give it a couple years. I suspect when the newness wears off on it the sales will drop like a rock. The regular style Mustang will continue to sell well though. IMO the 4 door Mach E will go away eventually because people will favor the normal Mustang.

ThecMach E is outselling the Mustang.

And to be clear the Mustang is NOT selling well.

Originally Posted by Envious_Ivy1LE

I can't say I agree with that. EV sales are pretty much going to be entirely intertwined with Tesla success and they seem to be gaining traction. Especially as the younger people start getting into the buying age.

Tesla just delivered 260,000 units in the last quarter, over 1,00,000 annually at that rate. Globally yes, but growing with new plants in Texas and Germany under construction

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

An electric Camaro at a drag strip, a circle track or a road coursewould be like watching a good movie on mute. Be kind like watching a Golf game. Lmao
They already have an electric Caddy sedan so don't waste your money Mary.

There is currently no Cadillac EV. They are advertising the Lyriq as if it does exist but you can only pre order. GM only has the Boot and Bolt SUV.

[Aow4321]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Fuel cell or hydrogen ICE? If the latter, there will be NOx emissions since, you know, air is 70%+ nitrogen.

Hydrogen's issue is that most of it still comes from natural gas(through steam reformation), so you are still relying on fossil fuels. Electrolysis is pretty energy intensive and overall a less efficient process than BEV. Making hydrogen, compressing it, transporting it and then storing it(remember, you gotta keep it compressed and it will still very slowly leak over time) will definitely be less efficient than just making electricity and throwing it across the power lines.

And again, we are more or less back to the "keeping the fridge cold or driving to work" problem described above if we were to make hydrogen out of electrolysis.

Ironically, hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. Just not on the Earth. The sun itself is basically a giant hydrogen reactor.

Another thing I just remembered: fuel cell water management is a big issue, so that's gonna be pretty fun for people living in humid areas as you now need a dehumidifying setup to get the water out of the fuel cell before it clogs itself up.

I mean Toyota just had an “ICE” Corolla entered in an endurance race that ran on water... it lost but the point is it ran and actually finished the race unlike Tesla’s at Nurburgring lol

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

And the Mustang Mach-E give it a couple years. I suspect when the newness wears off on it the sales will drop like a rock. The regular style Mustang will continue to sell well though. IMO the 4 door Mach E will go away eventually because people will favor the normal Mustang.

Can’t say I agree with this. Yes sales will go down but that happens to every car after the first year or two of a new model. The main reason I think the Mach E will sell well is because every NON car enthusiast I’ve talked to about it really wants one. Looks are a huge reason for wanting one which I’m very surprised by. Can’t say I’ve ever thought an suv looked cool in my life.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by Number 3

ThecMach E is outselling the Mustang.

And to be clear the Mustang is NOT selling well.



Tesla just delivered 260,000 units in the last quarter, over 1,00,000 annually at that rate. Globally yes, but growing with new plants in Texas and Germany under construction



There is currently no Cadillac EV. They are advertising the Lyriq as if it does exist but you can only pre order. GM only has the Boot and Bolt SUV.

All three Challenger, Mustang, and Camaro took a hit because of Covid but of course Camaro the worst.


I suspect the high gas prices will be a factor too. Some say gas prices shouldn't factor in our cars. I agree for US on THIS forum because we're hardcore Camaro owners and love the car. Your typical consumer though, not enthusiast does factor in gas cost in their purchase.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by Envious_Ivy1LE

I can't say I agree with that. EV sales are pretty much going to be entirely intertwined with Tesla success and they seem to be gaining traction. Especially as the younger people start getting into the buying age.

Well in many states they're going to have issues.


Down here in my part of Florida there will be BIG problems. Within 30 miles there are only FIVE charging stations I can count. Heck my side of the bridge there are NONE until you get all the way to Ft. Myers.


It will take tons of money and such to get more built to meet that demand.


Not many people drive electric around this region anyway. They will need hundreds more built from Tampa to Naples as I75 is a major road.


My town wants to raise taxes on businesses or something like that the city council wants to so they can build a few charging pumps or whatever you want to call them free of charge. met by heavy resistance by businesses.


Not to be political but our best hope for ICE to stay alive is to have a change in the political landscape next fall, and in the presidential elections in 2024.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

Well in many states they're going to have issues.


Down here in my part of Florida there will be BIG problems. Within 30 miles there are only FIVE charging stations I can count. Heck my side of the bridge there are NONE until you get all the way to Ft. Myers.


It will take tons of money and such to get more built to meet that demand.


Not many people drive electric around this region anyway. They will need hundreds more built from Tampa to Naples as I75 is a major road.


My town wants to raise taxes on businesses or something like that the city council wants to so they can build a few charging pumps or whatever you want to call them free of charge. met by heavy resistance by businesses.


Not to be political but our best hope for ICE to stay alive is to have a change in the political landscape next fall, and in the presidential elections in 2024.

Not true, but one would have to suspend a US-centric view of the world to really appreciate why. Automakers are already bought in on the issue of achieving carbon neutrality. They are speaking with their investment dollars. Money being spent will show up in products that will hit the road in 2024-27. So no matter who is in the Oval Office in 2024. A lot of the spending started flowing in 2019-20. Before the current administration was even identified.

This is the part where US-centric thought needs to be sidelined. North America is the 3rd largest auto market in the world. Not first, third. China is first (shocker). Europe is second. The days of designing vastly different vehicles for different parts of the world are pretty much over. Automakers have to design vehicles that comply to regulations in China and Europe. So guess what the 3rd largest market is going to get? The same basic platforms as the two largest markets. And more and more those platforms are going to be BEV, because that’s where the investment dollars are already flowing.

GM has already started to spend some of the $32B they pledge to spend on electrification over the next several years. Ford is saying $30B. Stellantis (Dodge) hasn’t committed to a number yet, but they have more than hinted at the idea of an electric muscle car and Tim Kuniskis (head of performance development) has stated more than once “electrification is the new performance”. With the amount of spending and development that has already been targeted towards building battery plants and development of skateboard platforms, turning that off because someone different is in the White House just is not gonna happen. White House residents do not have any lasting impact on the global automotive market. Not like in the ‘70s or ‘80s.

[Davy_Baby9]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

I think this will totally flop.


Lets make a guess what quarterly sales will be for this! If you think the 6th gen is already bad.


And the Mustang Mach-E give it a couple years. I suspect when the newness wears off on it the sales will drop like a rock. The regular style Mustang will continue to sell well though. IMO the 4 door Mach E will go away eventually because people will favor the normal Mustang.

You might as well say the Model Y sales would suck and that’s certainly not the case.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

I mean, you don't get warnings with a family sedan, but you don't really need them, do you? Never got in trouble when I drove my friend's Mazda6. Even in my RX-8, I only got a warning, not tickets.

And the ND2's power delivery surprised me. Miatas in general have this trick where they feel faster than they really are. The short gear ratios are a part of that, probably. It's just that, in the town, I can still floor it and I wouldn't be blowing past the speed limit, while if I want to do that in the Camaro, I have to find a place where I can get away with it. Track is generally a good outlet for that, but even then, it will depending on the track itself.

And part of the fun of driving an MX-5 also comes from the stick shift. Miata has a pretty high manual take rate, about the same as the automatic counterpart. I even remember visiting the local Mazda dealer once and there was an old lady, probably in her 70s or 80s, and her ND Miata is a 6-speed. Torque is just no big deal when you weigh under 2500 pounds, particularly with those gear ratios.

As for the affordability point, remember that maintenance and consumable are a big part as well. Yeah, you can pick up an E90 3 series for pretty cheap nowadays, but I hope you have some deep pockets for that N54 engine... Camaro SS will have more expensive consumables than the non-V8 counterparts, that's for sure.

I had a 2016 Camaro 2SS and traded it for a 2016 Miata ND. They are both fun in different ways. After driving the Miata for a bit I traded it for a 2019 Corvette Grand Sport M7. While the GrandSport was awesome it was just not as fun to drive on the street as the Miata. I wanted to see what all the Tesla fuss was about so I traded the C7 for a Tesla M3 Performance. As many have mentioned, EVs lack soul and driving engagement but if you are a sucker for instant torque it will keep a smile on your face for a while. I drove it for the past two years but recently sold it while the market was up to minimize depreciation.

So, guess what I replaced it with, a 2021 Miata GT ND2 6 speed. There is something special about these little Miatas. They are light, 2,332lbs, quick enough, 0-60mph in 5.8 sec, drop top, slick 6 speed with short gear ratios, etc. You can rip through a couple gears to 7500 rpm redline on the street and not risk jail time.

The car is cheap to operate, maintain and mod. Great aftermarket, great forums where everyone seems happy. It is just a fun car if you can physically fit in one and have another car for your daily duty. Kind of like an alternative to a motorcycle.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not true, but one would have to suspend a US-centric view of the world to really appreciate why. Automakers are already bought in on the issue of achieving carbon neutrality. They are speaking with their investment dollars. Money being spent will show up in products that will hit the road in 2024-27. So no matter who is in the Oval Office in 2024. A lot of the spending started flowing in 2019-20. Before the current administration was even identified.

This is the part where US-centric thought needs to be sidelined. North America is the 3rd largest auto market in the world. Not first, third. China is first (shocker). Europe is second. The days of designing vastly different vehicles for different parts of the world are pretty much over. Automakers have to design vehicles that comply to regulations in China and Europe. So guess what the 3rd largest market is going to get? The same basic platforms as the two largest markets. And more and more those platforms are going to be BEV, because that’s where the investment dollars are already flowing.

GM has already started to spend some of the $32B they pledge to spend on electrification over the next several years. Ford is saying $30B. Stellantis (Dodge) hasn’t committed to a number yet, but they have more than hinted at the idea of an electric muscle car and Tim Kuniskis (head of performance development) has stated more than once “electrification is the new performance”. With the amount of spending and development that has already been targeted towards building battery plants and development of skateboard platforms, turning that off because someone different is in the White House just is not gonna happen. White House residents do not have any lasting impact on the global automotive market. Not like in the ‘70s or ‘80s.

I remember several many years ago standing in the Design Dome and watching a presentation predicting the Chinese market would pass 30 million units, doubling and dwarfing our market. I also remember laughing at the ridiculousness of the prediction. Maybe the only time I was wrong

Anyone curious enough should go the Buick China website. Yep, a minivan among a couple of sedans no longer sold in the US and at least one EV.