[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

And while we argue about small savings around the margins, China has almost as many coal fired power plants as the rest of the world combined... and is building more.

India has the second most and, best I can tell, isn't shutting any down.

So feel good about your EV saving a tiny bit of emissions if you want to, but it is not making any difference.

It’s not about making a difference. It’s about that warm holier than thou feeling they get.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Big Growth in Electric Heat Set Stage For Blackouts in US South

The states hit hardest by blackouts in last week’s winter storm have significantly increased reliance on heating homes with electricity over the last decade, putting more strain on the power grid when temperatures plummet.

The number of households using electric heat in Tennessee, North Carolina and South Carolina increased by about 20% from 2009 to 2020, according to government data that survey a sample of households. The generating capacity of power plants in the region, meanwhile, has remained relativity flat and increasingly dependent on natural gas.

…“We have moved too swiftly over the past two decades to electrify residential heating,”
said Pat Wood, chief executive officer of Hunt Energy Network and former chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. “When that is combined with poorly insulated housing and low-efficiency appliances, we tax all of our resources across the board.”

…The push to electrify household appliances and heating has changed consumption patterns and created regions where electricity demand now peaks in both summer and winter, according to Sanjeet Sanghera, head of grids and utilities at BloombergNEF. That’s a shift from the past when electricity demand peaked in the summer due to air conditioner use but not in the winter as homes burned natural gas or oil for heat.

In Tennessee, the number of households using electric heat has increased by about 22% from 2009 to 2020, driven in part by population growth, according to government data. Over that same time period, the percent of households dependent on electric heating jumped to 69% from 63%, the data show.

That rise in electric heating demand came as Tennessee’s total power generation remained largely unchanged…

… In North and South Carolina, which were also hit by blackouts as energy use overwhelmed the grid, the number of homes using electric heat rose about 20% from 2009 to 2020, the data show. The total overall percent of households in those states relying on electric heat also climbed from 65% in 2009 to 70% in 2020.

Over that same time period, the total power supplies for the two states grew at just 2%, with coal being displaced mostly by natural gas units and some solar farms, the data show.



But hey! No worries! Let’s tax the grid even more by switching to EVs. What could go wrong?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by kevint

We (however you define the term) aren't a monolith. What I'm trying to say, and forgive me for not explaining my thoughts the first time, is that on a per-vehicle basis, what it costs to generate the power to charge an electric vehicle is less than the cost of filling and running an ICE.

This is true. I’ve run out of breath trying to explain that, so I’m glad you took up the mantle.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

The greens hate natural gas and hydro almost as much as oil and coal. In their fever dreams everything will be solar and wind. Their refusal to recognize the limits in both generation and storage are why the EV movement will fail. We don’t have the materials or technology to store even a fraction of our energy needs and the ability to do that isn’t going to be there for the foreseeable future.

Is that an opinion or can you actually point to statements from credible sources that make that position? I have never heard a soul who I’d characterize as a greenie say anything remotely similar to that. Maybe I’ll learn something today.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Is that an opinion or can you actually point to statements from credible sources that make that position? I have never heard a soul who I’d characterize as a greenie say anything remotely similar to that. Maybe I’ll learn something today.

"Democrats, including those running for president, are increasingly embracing more aggressive and progressive policies on climate change while rejecting natural gas, along with oil and coal. But this hasn’t always been the case."

https://www.axios.com/2019/06/25/dem...climate-change

"the Trudeau government’s antipathy to fossil fuels also extends to natural gas production, distribution and trade."

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/arti...-and-the-world

"In their petition, the attorneys general argued that allowing more natural gas to flow from Canada to the U.S. would harm the states’ efforts to combat climate change as the region shifts to renewable energy sources...Natural gas, primarily made of the greenhouse gas methane, is a main contributor to global warming."

https://oregoncapitalchronicle.com/2...dian-pipeline/


"More than 30 cities in California and a town in Massachusetts have pursued similar steps to discourage or eliminate gas use in new buildings."

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...climate-action

"The Sierra Club is committed to eliminating the use of fossil fuels, including coal, natural gas and oil, as soon as possible. We must replace all fossil fuels with clean renewable energy, efficiency and conservation. Fracking poses unacceptable risks to our communities, our environment and our climate"

https://www.sierraclub.org/policy/en...0our%20climate.

The Green movement is not a science based movement. It's a religion. They want you to live in smaller homes, travel less, and eat bugs instead of meat.

In fact, Oxford England is going to start imposing financial penalties on residents who travel too much:

"the plan involves prohibiting where residents of Oxford can drive (unless they have the proper paperwork) by breaking the city into six zones. Predictably, the concept has proven to be wildly unpopular with some of the locals....According to the Oxfordshire County Council’s own website, “traffic filtering” involves stopping vehicles from moving through selected checkpoints by leveraging a network of preexisting automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras. While locals will be eligible to purchase permits that will allow them to drive between the zones “up to 100 days per year,” exceeding this limit will result in fines."

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ca...-2023-44498004

Coming soon to your neighborhood.

[Rob3D]

Originally Posted by kevint

We (however you define the term) aren't a monolith. What I'm trying to say, and forgive me for not explaining my thoughts the first time, is that on a per-vehicle basis, what it costs to generate the power to charge an electric vehicle is less than the cost of filling and running an ICE.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This is true. I’ve run out of breath trying to explain that, so I’m glad you took up the mantle.

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

"Democrats, including those running for president, are increasingly embracing more aggressive and progressive policies on climate change while rejecting natural gas, along with oil and coal. But this hasn’t always been the case."

https://www.axios.com/2019/06/25/dem...climate-change

"the Trudeau government’s antipathy to fossil fuels also extends to natural gas production, distribution and trade."

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/arti...-and-the-world

"In their petition, the attorneys general argued that allowing more natural gas to flow from Canada to the U.S. would harm the states’ efforts to combat climate change as the region shifts to renewable energy sources...Natural gas, primarily made of the greenhouse gas methane, is a main contributor to global warming."

https://oregoncapitalchronicle.com/2...dian-pipeline/


"More than 30 cities in California and a town in Massachusetts have pursued similar steps to discourage or eliminate gas use in new buildings."

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...climate-action

"The Sierra Club is committed to eliminating the use of fossil fuels, including coal, natural gas and oil, as soon as possible. We must replace all fossil fuels with clean renewable energy, efficiency and conservation. Fracking poses unacceptable risks to our communities, our environment and our climate"

https://www.sierraclub.org/policy/en...0our%20climate.

The Green movement is not a science based movement. It's a religion. They want you to live in smaller homes, travel less, and eat bugs instead of meat.

In fact, Oxford England is going to start imposing financial penalties on residents who travel too much:

"the plan involves prohibiting where residents of Oxford can drive (unless they have the proper paperwork) by breaking the city into six zones. Predictably, the concept has proven to be wildly unpopular with some of the locals....According to the Oxfordshire County Council’s own website, “traffic filtering” involves stopping vehicles from moving through selected checkpoints by leveraging a network of preexisting automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras. While locals will be eligible to purchase permits that will allow them to drive between the zones “up to 100 days per year,” exceeding this limit will result in fines."

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ca...-2023-44498004

Coming soon to your neighborhood.

There’s no facts proving that, over all, a Camaro SS an EV have the same carbon footprint. The math just doesn’t add up. People just bend information to fit their own narrative because they dislike EV’s for some reason.

I’m confused how people won’t support EV’s as a whole. They are cleaner, next to no maintenance and just plain better. Obviously there are exceptions…like over the road trucking and for me personally, I will not haul a three horse slant behind anything I can’t fill up on ten minutes or doesn’t have a range less than a couple hundred miles. The EV hate is unbelievable.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

There’s no facts proving that, over all, a Camaro SS an EV have the same carbon footprint. The math just doesn’t add up. People just bend information to fit their own narrative because they dislike EV’s for some reason.

I’m confused how people won’t support EV’s as a whole. They are cleaner, next to no maintenance and just plain better. Obviously there are exceptions…like over the road trucking and for me personally, I will not haul a three horse slant behind anything I can’t fill up on ten minutes or doesn’t have a range less than a couple hundred miles. The EV hate is unbelievable.

People don't hate EV's per se. They hate the push, or should I say mandate, to make EV's our only choice. If they were just another option, no problem. But that is not the goal. The goal is to completely replace ICE vehicles with EV's. Not everyone wants an EV shoved down their throat.

But then it goes beyond just cars to all fossil fuels. For everything. So while the western world sacrifices its power generation capability at the alter of climate change, China and India spew out enough emissions to make any savings relatively meaningless.

Know why China continues to build coal fired plants? Because they can, but also to more economically produce all the stuff we buy from them including, ironically, lots and lots of EV batteries.

And another reason? Energy security. Well shit howdy, think about that for a minute.

So it isn't EV's themselves that people hate. It's everything they represent.

[0stones0]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

People don't hate EV's per se. They hate the push, or should I say mandate, to make EV's our only choice. If they were just another option, no problem. But that is not the goal. The goal is to completely replace ICE vehicles with EV's. Not everyone wants an EV shoved down their throat.

But then it goes beyond just cars to all fossil fuels. For everything. So while the western world sacrifices its power generation capability at the alter of climate change, China and India spew out enough emissions to make any savings relatively meaningless.

Know why China continues to build coal fired plants? Because they can, but also to more economically produce all the stuff we buy from them including, ironically, lots and lots of EV batteries.

And another reason? Energy security. Well shit howdy, think about that for a minute.

So it isn't EV's themselves that people hate. It's everything they represent.

^^^^^ +1
I think this speaks for a larger group than most would think.

[ariZona28]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

People don't hate EV's per se. They hate the push, or should I say mandate, to make EV's our only choice. If they were just another option, no problem. But that is not the goal. The goal is to completely replace ICE vehicles with EV's. Not everyone wants an EV shoved down their throat.

But then it goes beyond just cars to all fossil fuels. For everything. So while the western world sacrifices its power generation capability at the alter of climate change, China and India spew out enough emissions to make any savings relatively meaningless.

Know why China continues to build coal fired plants? Because they can, but also to more economically produce all the stuff we buy from them including, ironically, lots and lots of EV batteries.

And another reason? Energy security. Well shit howdy, think about that for a minute.

So it isn't EV's themselves that people hate. It's everything they represent.

+2!!!

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

People don't hate EV's per se. They hate the push, or should I say mandate, to make EV's our only choice. If they were just another option, no problem. But that is not the goal. The goal is to completely replace ICE vehicles with EV's. Not everyone wants an EV shoved down their throat.

But then it goes beyond just cars to all fossil fuels. For everything. So while the western world sacrifices its power generation capability at the alter of climate change, China and India spew out enough emissions to make any savings relatively meaningless.

Know why China continues to build coal fired plants? Because they can, but also to more economically produce all the stuff we buy from them including, ironically, lots and lots of EV batteries.

And another reason? Energy security. Well shit howdy, think about that for a minute.

So it isn't EV's themselves that people hate. It's everything they represent.

Plus infinity!

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

There’s no facts proving that, over all, a Camaro SS an EV have the same carbon footprint. The math just doesn’t add up. People just bend information to fit their own narrative because they dislike EV’s for some reason.

I’m confused how people won’t support EV’s as a whole. They are cleaner, next to no maintenance and just plain better. Obviously there are exceptions…like over the road trucking and for me personally, I will not haul a three horse slant behind anything I can’t fill up on ten minutes or doesn’t have a range less than a couple hundred miles. The EV hate is unbelievable.

From the other side.

There’s no facts proving that over all an EV has a smaller carbon footprint. The math just doesn’t add up. People just bend information to fit their own narrative because they dislike ICE vehicles for some reason.

I’m confused how people won’t support freedom to choose as a whole. ICE vehicles have longer range, next to no time to refill and are just plain better. Obviously there are exceptions…like urban commuting but for me personally, I will not make a road trip in anything I can’t fill up in five minutes or that doesn’t have a range greater than three hundred miles. The hate for freedom to choose what kind of vehicle you want is unbelievable.

Much better.

[Rob3D]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

From the other side.

There’s no facts proving that over all an EV has a smaller carbon footprint. The math just doesn’t add up. People just bend information to fit their own narrative because they dislike ICE vehicles for some reason.

I’m confused how people won’t support freedom to choose as a whole. ICE vehicles have longer range, next to no time to refill and are just plain better. Obviously there are exceptions…like urban commuting but for me personally, I will not make a road trip in anything I can’t fill up in five minutes or that doesn’t have a range greater than three hundred miles. The hate for freedom to choose what kind of vehicle you want is unbelievable.

Much better.

Who’s trying to remove your freedom to chose? No one’s hating on whatever you chose. You wrote “ Exactly. I bet my SS has lower emissions than an EV once you account for how the electricity is being generated.” That’s utter nonsense. All of your posts and cut and pastes have not proved that. Quite the contrary actually.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

Who’s trying to remove your freedom to chose? No one’s hating on whatever you chose. You wrote “ Exactly. I bet my SS has lower emissions than an EV once you account for how the electricity is being generated.” That’s utter nonsense. All of your posts and cut and pastes have not proved that. Quite the contrary actually.

The same people who are regulating ICE vehicles out of existence. Uncle Sam. Perhaps you missed California banning the sale of ICE vehicles?


I’ve seen no proof from you or others that EVs have lower carbon footprints than ICE vehicles once the carbon created in manufacturing them and in generating the electricity that powers them is accounted for.

I suggest that the people moving to change the world justify it. YOU prove it!

My last few posts, one of which you quoted, had nothing to do with proving anything about emissions. Read more carefully. They were a response to a question about Greens hating natural gas.

[Rob3D]

What? Why? So you can shoot down every source? It’s like the big lie, keep repeating how bad something is and you’ll think people will buy it.