[Camaro fanboy]

it's been minus 20c here lately. the range on our leaf is down to about 80 miles lol

[Wyzz Kydd]

Long thread. It seems to boil down to:
1. EVs are cheaper to operate. All those who purchased a Camaro because it’s cheap to operate raise your hands….crickets.
2. You can add fake stuff to EVs so they seem more like ICE cars. If EVs are so great, why spend money trying to make them more like ICE cars?
3. EVs are the future. Really, then why are they so heavily subsidized? ICE cars became tremendously successful with zero subsidies.
4. EVs are zero emissions. News flash, most EVs in this country run on coal.
5. The market wants EVs. No, the government is telling you that you’ll buy EVs and like it.
6. If you don’t like EVs you’re stupid, or a bad person. Hmm I have an idea where you can put that opinion and it won’t be comfortable to sit afterwards.
7. They’re good looking cars. I’ve never seen an EV that looked as good as a 64 Vette, or 57 Chevy, or 67 GTO, or any 6th Gen Camaro.

They’re ugly soulless toasters, with batteries whose components come from child slave labor in the Congo among other places. They’re slow to charge, have limited range, are subject to unilateral manufacturer alteration after the sale and are already introducing the requirement to pay ongoing subscription fees to get full functionality. They’re also a solution to a fake problem.

Most importantly to me, people who think they’re smarter than me want to force me into one and I’m not the type to be told what I will or won’t like.

[mickss]

Technology replaced the horse as the sol form of personal transportation, if in the future EV`s prove to be superior to ICE then ICE will join the horse. It`s human nature to make and improve on technology and I`m sure someday, someway there will be technological breakthrough that will replace ICE and then someday, someway there will be a technological breakthrough that will replace EV`s..........From the Wright Bro`s to landing on the moon humans are always trying to find a better way, it`s our nature to improve on present technology to better the future.



https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/07/17/auto-fad/

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

.

As with most things car-related, this is all very subjective. One man's pie is another man's poison. But on the other hand, there's usually only one set of facts. They may be interpreted differently, but they are still the same facts.

1. EVs are cheaper to operate. All those who purchased a Camaro because it’s cheap to operate raise your hands….crickets.Totally agree. If you're buying a car because of TCO, a Camaro should never be your choice. On the other hand, in addition to having lower TCO, most EVs are faster than most Camaros, so there's that.
2. You can add fake stuff to EVs so they seem more like ICE cars. If EVs are so great, why spend money trying to make them more like ICE cars? You can also add fake stuff to ICE cars. It's called modding and there's an entire industry built around doing just that. FWIW, nobody I know who owns an EV has done anything to them to make them seem more ICE.
3. EVs are the future. Really, then why are they so heavily subsidized? ICE cars became tremendously successful with zero subsidies.The subsidies serve two purposes. 1) They are viewed as the cost to move people to more environmentally friendly (zero emissions) options. A lot less costly to reduce emissions at the source than to try to clean up the air later. 2) The recently passed Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) has incentives in it to locate vehicle and battery manufacturing in the United States instead of having the majority of EVs imported from S. Korea, Japan, Europe, and China. In short...jobs.
4. EVs are zero emissions. News flash, most EVs in this country run on coal. Power utilities across the country are rapidly shifting from coal power generation to natural gas, hydro, and solar. All of them have a much cleaner footprint than coal. In Michigan, where I live, the two major power utilities are committed to zero coal by 2050.
5. The market wants EVs. No, the government is telling you that you’ll buy EVs and like it. Very subjective. There are at least as many people who want EVs as there are people who vow never to buy one. Practically every new EV product announcement sells out and has lengthy backorder from the moment their order banks open. Example...the Cadillac Lyriq is sold out for 2022 and 2023. And the Cadillac Celestiq is also sold out. At $300k and up per copy.
6. If you don’t like EVs you’re stupid, or a bad person. Hmm I have an idea where you can put that opinion and it won’t be comfortable to sit afterwards. I think it's safe to say most rational people don't think this way. It's about as rational as "All Mustangs suck" if you're a Camaro owner or "All Camaros suck" if you're a Mustang owner.
7. They’re good looking cars. I’ve never seen an EV that looked as good as a 64 Vette, or 57 Chevy, or 67 GTO, or any 6th Gen Camaro. Again, very subjective. The '63 Split Window 'Vette is my #1 dream car, followed closely by the '67 Shelby GT350. But I still think the Lucid Air is a beautiful car and I like the Blazer EV SS enough to be in line for one when they hit the market in late 2023. I've never really liked the '57 Chevy, but that's just me. Subjective.

They’re ugly soulless toasters, with batteries whose components come from child slave labor in the Congo among other places. The child labor was true until automakers realized where their suppliers were getting cobalt. When it came to light most if not all automakers put language in their procurement contracts calling for instant contract nullification if it is discovered that minerals for batteries come from questionable sources. One of the requirements of the IRA that I referred to earlier requires that the sourcing and processing of (6) key battery materials come from North America or countries that we have free trade agreements with. This is due in part to efforts to eliminate questionable labor practices to support battery manufacture. Is it still happening? Probably, but governments and automakers are working together to eliminate it. And, fwiw, those same minerals are used in the production of ICE cars too, just not as much needed. They’re slow to charge, have limited range, literally changing every day. By the time EVs are fully mainstream, fast charging will allow most people to charge in 15 - 45 minutes on long trips. As for day-to-day charging, the vehicle charges while you're not using it. Completely eliminating 5 - 10 minute stops at the gas station every week or so., are subject to unilateral manufacturer alteration after the sale, and are already introducing the requirement to pay ongoing subscription fees to get full functionality. not limited to EVs. Tesla pioneered over the air updates (OTA) but every automaker is currently in the process of rolling out OTA in their vehicles, both EV and ICE, to address warranty issues without doing a physical recall, add capability that wasn't available when the vehicle was built, and in some cases set up a subscription option for buyers. Sorta like remote tuning a built Camaro. Automakers can update the software on any new vehicle now and going forward. They’re also a solution to a fake problem. Again, subjective. Some people believe that climate change is real, some don't. I'm in the "believe" column.

Most importantly to me, people who think they’re smarter than me want to force me into one and I’m not the type to be told what I will or won’t like. On one hand, nobody is forcing anybody to buy an EV. On the other hand, the options for available ICE vehicles will continue to reduce year by year. ICE vehicles will still be available for those who want them even after I take up residence in a pretty urn on my kid's fireplace mantel.
They will be more limited in variety as EVs become more popular and automakers continue to shift their investment dollars to make new and better EVs. Even in states that plan to ban purchase of new ICEs by 2035 (4 states so far), there are still loopholes that allow the acquisition of used ICE vehicles and people will be able to continue to drive the ICE vehicles they already have. So I can still get that '63 split window or '67 Shelby if I really want to. People not living in states with ICE bans will be able to buy whatever the heck they want.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by mickss

Technology replaced the horse as the sol form of personal transportation, if in the future EV`s prove to be superior to ICE then ICE will join the horse. It`s human nature to make and improve on technology and I`m sure someday, someway there will be technological breakthrough that will replace ICE and then someday, someway there will be a technological breakthrough that will replace EV`s..........From the Wright Bro`s to landing on the moon humans are always trying to find a better way, it`s our nature to improve on present technology to better the future.



https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/07/17/auto-fad/

ICE cars were superior to horses which is why they didn’t require government subsidies the way EVs do. Market forces killed off horses as the dominant means of transportation. ICE cars are being killed off by government decree.

[Wyzz Kydd]

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/202...rnment-scheme/
Here’s a cool feature ICE cars don’t have. The German government plans on remotely limiting users ability to charge their vehicles, potentially making it take three hours to charge enough to travel 30 miles.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/202...rnment-scheme/
Here’s a cool feature ICE cars don’t have. The German government plans on remotely limiting users ability to charge their vehicles, potentially making it take three hours to charge enough to travel 30 miles.

And if you like that, you should see what that same agency is recommending now for gasoline, diesel, and home heating oil rationing. Remember gasoline rationing during the energy crisis in the ‘70s? Start there and crank it up a notch.

[1fastz28]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

As with most things car-related, this is all very subjective. One man's pie is another man's poison. But on the other hand, there's usually only one set of facts. They may be interpreted differently, but they are still the same facts.

1. EVs are cheaper to operate. All those who purchased a Camaro because it’s cheap to operate raise your hands….crickets.Totally agree. If you're buying a car because of TCO, a Camaro should never be your choice. On the other hand, in addition to having lower TCO, most EVs are faster than most Camaros, so there's that.
2. You can add fake stuff to EVs so they seem more like ICE cars. If EVs are so great, why spend money trying to make them more like ICE cars? You can also add fake stuff to ICE cars. It's called modding and there's an entire industry built around doing just that. FWIW, nobody I know who owns an EV has done anything to them to make them seem more ICE.
3. EVs are the future. Really, then why are they so heavily subsidized? ICE cars became tremendously successful with zero subsidies.The subsidies serve two purposes. 1) They are viewed as the cost to move people to more environmentally friendly (zero emissions) options. A lot less costly to reduce emissions at the source than to try to clean up the air later. 2) The recently passed Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) has incentives in it to locate vehicle and battery manufacturing in the United States instead of having the majority of EVs imported from S. Korea, Japan, Europe, and China. In short...jobs.
4. EVs are zero emissions. News flash, most EVs in this country run on coal. Power utilities across the country are rapidly shifting from coal power generation to natural gas, hydro, and solar. All of them have a much cleaner footprint than coal. In Michigan, where I live, the two major power utilities are committed to zero coal by 2050.
5. The market wants EVs. No, the government is telling you that you’ll buy EVs and like it. Very subjective. There are at least as many people who want EVs as there are people who vow never to buy one. Practically every new EV product announcement sells out and has lengthy backorder from the moment their order banks open. Example...the Cadillac Lyriq is sold out for 2022 and 2023. And the Cadillac Celestiq is also sold out. At $300k and up per copy.
6. If you don’t like EVs you’re stupid, or a bad person. Hmm I have an idea where you can put that opinion and it won’t be comfortable to sit afterwards. I think it's safe to say most rational people don't think this way. It's about as rational as "All Mustangs suck" if you're a Camaro owner or "All Camaros suck" if you're a Mustang owner.
7. They’re good looking cars. I’ve never seen an EV that looked as good as a 64 Vette, or 57 Chevy, or 67 GTO, or any 6th Gen Camaro. Again, very subjective. The '63 Split Window 'Vette is my #1 dream car, followed closely by the '67 Shelby GT350. But I still think the Lucid Air is a beautiful car and I like the Blazer EV SS enough to be in line for one when they hit the market in late 2023. I've never really liked the '57 Chevy, but that's just me. Subjective.

They’re ugly soulless toasters, with batteries whose components come from child slave labor in the Congo among other places. The child labor was true until automakers realized where their suppliers were getting cobalt. When it came to light most if not all automakers put language in their procurement contracts calling for instant contract nullification if it is discovered that minerals for batteries come from questionable sources. One of the requirements of the IRA that I referred to earlier requires that the sourcing and processing of (6) key battery materials come from North America or countries that we have free trade agreements with. This is due in part to efforts to eliminate questionable labor practices to support battery manufacture. Is it still happening? Probably, but governments and automakers are working together to eliminate it. And, fwiw, those same minerals are used in the production of ICE cars too, just not as much needed. They’re slow to charge, have limited range, literally changing every day. By the time EVs are fully mainstream, fast charging will allow most people to charge in 15 - 45 minutes on long trips. As for day-to-day charging, the vehicle charges while you're not using it. Completely eliminating 5 - 10 minute stops at the gas station every week or so., are subject to unilateral manufacturer alteration after the sale, and are already introducing the requirement to pay ongoing subscription fees to get full functionality. not limited to EVs. Tesla pioneered over the air updates (OTA) but every automaker is currently in the process of rolling out OTA in their vehicles, both EV and ICE, to address warranty issues without doing a physical recall, add capability that wasn't available when the vehicle was built, and in some cases set up a subscription option for buyers. Sorta like remote tuning a built Camaro. Automakers can update the software on any new vehicle now and going forward. They’re also a solution to a fake problem. Again, subjective. Some people believe that climate change is real, some don't. I'm in the "believe" column.

Most importantly to me, people who think they’re smarter than me want to force me into one and I’m not the type to be told what I will or won’t like. On one hand, nobody is forcing anybody to buy an EV. On the other hand, the options for available ICE vehicles will continue to reduce year by year. ICE vehicles will still be available for those who want them even after I take up residence in a pretty urn on my kid's fireplace mantel.
They will be more limited in variety as EVs become more popular and automakers continue to shift their investment dollars to make new and better EVs. Even in states that plan to ban purchase of new ICEs by 2035 (4 states so far), there are still loopholes that allow the acquisition of used ICE vehicles and people will be able to continue to drive the ICE vehicles they already have. So I can still get that '63 split window or '67 Shelby if I really want to. People not living in states with ICE bans will be able to buy whatever the heck they want.

excellent post.

[ariZona28]

Originally Posted by 1fastz28

excellent post.

Well that too is subjective. LOL! I was chatting with 2 Tesla drivers at a recent track day. Their "cars" were impressively fast until they started to deplete their charge. One individual even started complaining that with it being a new track a charging station should have been installed to accommodate their appliances. They were both very nice fellows so I resisted the urge to poke fun at their situation but I did mention (humorously) that they should get a nice, big truck and trailer with a diesel generator as a pit vehicle. The sour look on the complainers face indicated that my humor went a little over his head.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Well that too is subjective. LOL! I was chatting with 2 Tesla drivers at a recent track day. Their "cars" were impressively fast until they started to deplete their charge. One individual even started complaining that with it being a new track a charging station should have been installed to accommodate their appliances. They were both very nice fellows so I resisted the urge to poke fun at their situation but I did mention (humorously) that they should get a nice, big truck and trailer with a diesel generator as a pit vehicle. The sour look on the complainers face indicated that my humor went a little over his head.

Should’ve told him to try his luck driving it at the Tail of the Dragon. Look closely in the picture below. Roughly 8:30 location on the far left. I also found it interesting that the “T” in “Tail” strongly resembles the Tesla logo.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Well that too is subjective. LOL! I was chatting with 2 Tesla drivers at a recent track day. Their "cars" were impressively fast until they started to deplete their charge. One individual even started complaining that with it being a new track a charging station should have been installed to accommodate their appliances. They were both very nice fellows so I resisted the urge to poke fun at their situation but I did mention (humorously) that they should get a nice, big truck and trailer with a diesel generator as a pit vehicle. The sour look on the complainers face indicated that my humor went a little over his head.

I have a surgeon friend with a Tesla who occasionally mentions racing me. I always suggest best of 5 runs at a spot quite a ways from the nearest charging station, and he declines the invitation.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

I have a surgeon friend with a Tesla who occasionally mentions racing me. I always suggest best of 5 runs at a spot quite a ways from the nearest charging station, and he declines the invitation.

I had an ‘87 Corvette and a friend of mine had an ‘87 Grand National. Every time we raced I kicked his ass. When I got a transfer to a different city I explained to him why he could never beat me. I only raced him on hot days and picked roads that had at least one nice curve. His intercooler was less efficient on hot days. And even if he did start gaining on me….curve. Grand Nationals don’t like curves.

[Rob3D]

Every car can race until they deplete their fuel. As for that Grand National story…definitely calling bs on that.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

Every car can race until they deplete their fuel. As for that Grand National story…definitely calling bs on that.

yeah...except that at the track the ICE car can fill up in two minutes and be ready to go. EVs can't do that....yet. So the story holds water just fine.

As for Martinjlm...he does not bs.