[DanSS24]

I like it.

[DanSS24]

Somehow, the winglets (if it's called that) won't be that high and going across the brake ducts like the render. Looking at the video, the brake ducts looks smaller and winglets lower, closer to the splitter. It's crazy how engineers figure out aerodynamics and downforce. Still love the render, Chris. Thank you for fixing it.

[EddieC]

Originally Posted by Sidedraft

That's a pretty big leap in logic, and you don't even know me.

I fully admit that I'm jumping the gun a bit here given that all we've seen are some camo spy shots. But some of you guys want a Camaro to be the fastest car in the world, and that's fine, but you're going to reach a price point where it's going to rust on dealer lots because people with that kind of cash ain't buying a car with a bow tie on the front of the grille, no matter how fast it is. This car looks like it's following the same failed formula the fifth gen Z/28 came to market with. I'm sure it will be technically brilliant, I'm sure it will be a hell of a car, but it's going to come with a price tag that's going to be more than the market will bear.

And why? Because someone wants to say it's faster than a Viper ACR? Faster than a GTR? At what point have you chased lap times to a point that you've made the car into something it's not? Would you pay $100,000 for a new Camaro? At what point is the car a Camaro-in-name-only? Would half of you guys even care if this car had a Cadillac badge on it?

A lot of you read way too much in my question a few pages back. I'm not saying the Camaro shouldn't be competing with cars above its weight class, I was asking why do you feel it HAS to compete with them. How far down that rabbit hole are you willing to go and at what price?

The Z/28 was and is a race car, "GM's new weapon, the Z-28 Camaro, was a very formable foe. Mark Donahue, driving a Roger Penske Camaro, won 10 of 12 races, including eight straight wins taking the '68 Trans Am trophy". I believe this is going to be for GT3 racing.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Sidedraft

That's a pretty big leap in logic, and you don't even know me.

I fully admit that I'm jumping the gun a bit here given that all we've seen are some camo spy shots. But some of you guys want a Camaro to be the fastest car in the world, and that's fine, but you're going to reach a price point where it's going to rust on dealer lots because people with that kind of cash ain't buying a car with a bow tie on the front of the grille, no matter how fast it is. This car looks like it's following the same failed formula the fifth gen Z/28 came to market with. I'm sure it will be technically brilliant, I'm sure it will be a hell of a car, but it's going to come with a price tag that's going to be more than the market will bear.

And why? Because someone wants to say it's faster than a Viper ACR? Faster than a GTR? At what point have you chased lap times to a point that you've made the car into something it's not? Would you pay $100,000 for a new Camaro? At what point is the car a Camaro-in-name-only? Would half of you guys even care if this car had a Cadillac badge on it?

A lot of you read way too much in my question a few pages back. I'm not saying the Camaro shouldn't be competing with cars above its weight class, I was asking why do you feel it HAS to compete with them. How far down that rabbit hole are you willing to go and at what price?

I can't speak for anyone other than me and my clients. Our interest is in taking the Camaro architecture as far as it can go. Where are the limits? What can't it do? What can it do if? When the factory builds a z/28 like model, we think they are thinking like we do and we love it.

I first fit a set of 305/30/19 to my Camaro in 2009. We had 560 RWHP, CTS-V 6 pot front brakes and a laundry list of suspension upgrades. We were by far and away the first bad fast street legal road course Camaro in the fall of 2009. Look at the 2014 Z/28.

305/30/19s
Sealed monoball upgraded toe links
Harder, denser sub-frame bushings
Hard radius bushing inserts
Similar spring rates

A Camaro owner can reach into the Chevy parts bin and upgrade a base model small motor model for performance or looks. On the factory side, they set a standard that thee 6th Gen had to match. Model for model, the 6th Gen hit the target to date.

In years past, the factories spent hundreds of millions of dollars on styling exercises for show cars. SEMA was full of factory deal build cars. GM has radically dialed that back. Part of the reasoning is to try and sell thier own brand of high performance parts. The other, at least at GM, seems to be a shift from show to go engineering. Why not invest in engineering a limited production model Z/28 that sells in limited quantities, grabs head lines, bragging rights, but more importantly allows the engineers to build better cars, to learn how to build the next high volume car better?

From my business side, all they have done is set the bar higher for me. Can we build a better handling, faster, lighter 5th Gen than a Z/28?

Is the sky blue?
Is water wet?



Wet and ready to track, complete with cage, bigger tires, 5 gallon dry sump oil tank, interior and much more the JP/Z weighs less than a C7 Z06 dry.









We took her for the first at speed shake down to the NJMP OPTIMA. The owner lives in California and we are based in Martinsville VA, NASCAR country so testing is a very expensive proposition. Wel'll test and tune at the events Darren can make. The owner had never been in the car at speed. First time out and finished with the 3rd fastest road course time. This was the shake down outing and we know they never roll off the trailer fast. It takes time to dial them in.

We can't wait to tear into a full 6th Gen build...be cause we want to know just how far we can take her.

[Bhobbs]

I agree.

As long as GM builds cars that keep the Camaro alive, I don't see an issue with letting the engineers go wild for one model.

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I agree.

As long as GM builds cars that keep the Camaro alive, I don't see an issue with letting the engineers go wild for one model.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Sidedraft

That's a pretty big leap in logic, and you don't even know me.

I fully admit that I'm jumping the gun a bit here given that all we've seen are some camo spy shots. But some of you guys want a Camaro to be the fastest car in the world, and that's fine, but you're going to reach a price point where it's going to rust on dealer lots because people with that kind of cash ain't buying a car with a bow tie on the front of the grille, no matter how fast it is. This car looks like it's following the same failed formula the fifth gen Z/28 came to market with. I'm sure it will be technically brilliant, I'm sure it will be a hell of a car, but it's going to come with a price tag that's going to be more than the market will bear.

And why? Because someone wants to say it's faster than a Viper ACR? Faster than a GTR? At what point have you chased lap times to a point that you've made the car into something it's not? Would you pay $100,000 for a new Camaro? At what point is the car a Camaro-in-name-only? Would half of you guys even care if this car had a Cadillac badge on it?

A lot of you read way too much in my question a few pages back. I'm not saying the Camaro shouldn't be competing with cars above its weight class, I was asking why do you feel it HAS to compete with them. How far down that rabbit hole are you willing to go and at what price?

I definitely agree with you on the price point objection. $75K for a Camaro is a lot of money...however, in comparison to the cars it out performed, still a bargain.

The thing is this, the Z/28 wasn't designed and built to pad the GM bottom line, in and of itself. The Z/28 is a halo car. What a halo car does, is several things. It allows engineers to stretch the limits, and "see what they can build" rather than just "build what they can sell". This is an exercise that creates new technology and design that trickles down to the rest of the lines, making for a better product overall. The halo car also helps to create new relationships with other manufacturers. These can often result in a cooperation where GM gets better stuff and these manufacturers develop better processes, which help to drive the cost down on premium parts and materials, i.e. carbon fiber. Then of course, and the main reason they build cars like this is brand recognition. You're absolutely right that many, most people aren't going to drop $100K on a Camaro, if I had that kind of money, I'm getting a Z06. However, I'll stop by the dealership to gawk at one, while I'm there, I look at the SS sitting in the corner of the showroom. No, it's not a Z/28, but it's 80% of one for about 55% the price, and that I can do. Maybe I drag the wife with me, now with the family and all, I am not in the market, but I just want to see the Z. Then wifey starts looking around at the other cars and next thing you know, we're driving home in a new Equinox. This is the role the halo car plays in generating revenue for the company.

[Memphis43]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

I definitely agree with you on the price point objection. $75K for a Camaro is a lot of money...however, in comparison to the cars it out performed, still a bargain.

The thing is this, the Z/28 wasn't designed and built to pad the GM bottom line, in and of itself. The Z/28 is a halo car. What a halo car does, is several things. It allows engineers to stretch the limits, and "see what they can build" rather than just "build what they can sell". This is an exercise that creates new technology and design that trickles down to the rest of the lines, making for a better product overall. The halo car also helps to create new relationships with other manufacturers. These can often result in a cooperation where GM gets better stuff and these manufacturers develop better processes, which help to drive the cost down on premium parts and materials, i.e. carbon fiber. Then of course, and the main reason they build cars like this is brand recognition. You're absolutely right that many, most people aren't going to drop $100K on a Camaro, if I had that kind of money, I'm getting a Z06. However, I'll stop by the dealership to gawk at one, while I'm there, I look at the SS sitting in the corner of the showroom. No, it's not a Z/28, but it's 80% of one for about 55% the price, and that I can do. Maybe I drag the wife with me, now with the family and all, I am not in the market, but I just want to see the Z. Then wifey starts looking around at the other cars and next thing you know, we're driving home in a new Equinox. This is the role the halo car plays in generating revenue for the company.

The failed logic in this is that dealers suffer the consequences of it not selling. As a matter of fact Z28s were forced on dealers at one point when they didn't want any.

Now you have them sitting on lots and not even 16-20k off can sell them.

The dealer is going to lose money on the remaining cars on the lots. Most will go on final pay. Very soon.

GM does not need to make another car that can't sell like that.




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[RLHMARINES]

Originally Posted by Memphis43

The failed logic in this is that dealers suffer the consequences of it not selling. As a matter of fact Z28s were forced on dealers at one point when they didn't want any.

Now you have them sitting on lots and not even 16-20k off can sell them.

The dealer is going to lose money on the remaining cars on the lots. Most will go on final pay. Very soon.

GM does not need to make another car that can't sell like that.

Not every dealer was allocated a Z/28 and some of those that did hurt themselves with markups to pad their own pockets.

I personally know of dealers who refused to sell at sticker and misjudged the market which left them holding the bag so to speak. I know of at least 4 cars that sold during the sale.

I still want my Z/28 to be the halo model in the lineup and I hope it is not neutered in any way.

[Memphis43]

Originally Posted by RLHMARINES

Not every dealer was allocated a Z/28 and some of those that did hurt themselves with markups to pad their own pockets.



I personally know of dealers who refused to sell at sticker and misjudged the market which left them holding the bag so to speak. I know of at least 4 cars that sold during the sale.



I still want my Z/28 to be the halo model in the lineup and I hope it is not neutered in any way.

Most if not all z28s had no markup. At all. And on top of that if they did, it didn't last long.

Take out the few dealers who did mark them up, and you have dealers who weren't allocated any that got one in the end as well.

Even if you want to call injustice to markup, what's keeping you from buying one for 20k off?




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[JusticePete]

GM was so concerned about ride quality, they warned poeople that the ride in the Z/28 was almost intolerable for a daily driver. Compared to a Lexus touring car they are right, but for an enthusiast the ride is fine. How many times did you hear theZ/28 is NOT a daily driver? With no AC, you have to be really hard core, but with AC, what is wrong with the Z/28 as a daily driver?

Those comments made the Z/28 market very very small.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Memphis43

Most if not all z28s had no markup. At all. And on top of that if they did, it didn't last long.

Take out the few dealers who did mark them up, and you have dealers who weren't allocated any that got one in the end as well.

Even if you want to call injustice to markup, what's keeping you from buying one for 20k off?




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I think more than a "few" dealers put markups on them..it's not like GM/Chevy dealers are standard bearers for square dealing and universally are just "great dealerships".

When a new car comes out, gets hyped, gets fantastic reviews and makes headlines..dealers mouths water, their palms get itchy because they know that people will come in asking about the cars, and some of those people will have money to burn and a need to have special cars. One of my local dealers was like that, and had their first Z/28 marked at $110,000..a $35,000 markup..and you know what? It sold. They got a second Z/28 and did the same thing, and it sat for 14 months until they sold it for $5,000 under MSRP to clear the floor space for a 2015 SS sedan.

Limited edition, limited production and hyped cars bring out the inner crook that lives in every single automotive dealer in one way or another.

[Memphis43]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I think more than a "few" dealers put markups on them..it's not like GM/Chevy dealers are standard bearers for square dealing and universally are just "great dealerships".

When a new car comes out, gets hyped, gets fantastic reviews and makes headlines..dealers mouths water, their palms get itchy because they know that people will come in asking about the cars, and some of those people will have money to burn and a need to have special cars. One of my local dealers was like that, and had their first Z/28 marked at $110,000..a $35,000 markup..and you know what? It sold. They got a second Z/28 and did the same thing, and it sat for 14 months until they sold it for $5,000 under MSRP to clear the floor space for a 2015 SS sedan.

Limited edition, limited production and hyped cars bring out the inner crook that lives in every single automotive dealer in one way or another.

Listen, even if what you said was true the dealers soon found out that they couldn't sell them. Most of the dealers in the mid south area had no markup within a month and most had none. We chose not to put any on it.

Very little sold at markup. Very very few. You now have plenty of them sitting on lots with more than 10k off gathering dust and are over a year old. Some close to two. What's the excuse now? How about 20k off? Had that as well and nobody bit.

That's with the 20% off sale that went on and the dealer would have only taken a very small loss. Now, the cars are on what's called final pay. To put that in perspective, that means that there will be no more incentives, no more rebates, no help from GM to sell the vehicles.

You know how much markup is in a Z28? Not much.

The dealers are going to take a big loss. Bottom line. That's not gonna work next time around. If the next z28 comes out along the same lines (which we can expect) it probably will be in much more limited numbers and dealers will not order them.

If they follows ford line and actually offer package options we may have a different story.

GM does not build cars not to sell. Regardless of what anyone says.


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[2cnd chance]

IMO the problem with slow sales in the 5Gen Z/28 was not only price it was the fact that the 6Gen was soon to be announced. Who wants to buy a premium product that's yesterdays news? Especially in sports-cars when the majority are on to the next shiny object (rumored to weigh much less and have better technology).
I think this is why GM is pushing the models early in the 6Gen production. In most cases people will wait till "their" Model/Package shows up. Waiting to release a new package at the end of a product line is foolish, case in point!