[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The biggest problem with the 5th Gen Z/28 is that it gave the hardcore track folks exactly what they wanted. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but this happens every time an auto manufacturer makes a stripped down track car. It always goes like this:

Hey, we love this car, but we want it to go faster. Like, why don't you leave out the back seats, and A/C, all that crap is completely unnecessary and adds weight. We want the biggest fastest engine, and most aggressive tires and brakes, and it be awesome and sell like hotcakes.

Then, once produced, the same folks say: Hey, where is our blue tooth cappuccino maker? Why is this car so expensive, when it doesn't even come with A/C or a back seat! Why is this ride so harsh, why is the engine and road noise so loud. I mean, this car is fast and all, but it sucks to ride around in on a trip to the car fest.

And then they don't buy it.

The fact is that the more hard core you make a car, the less it will sell, EVEN TO THE FOLKS THAT WANT A HARDCORE CAR.

When ford re-introduced the GT350, twice as many tech pack cars sold than track pack. Think about that. Folks bought a track car with all the luxury trimmings, not a stripped down car.

If the 5th Gen Z/28 had options to put luxury items back in the car, or came with luxury bits, but had options to remove them, it would have sold more. Everyone wants and loves a stripped down track car, but no one buys them.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The biggest problem with the 5th Gen Z/28 is that it gave the hardcore track folks exactly what they wanted. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but this happens every time an auto manufacturer makes a stripped down track car. It always goes like this:

Hey, we love this car, but we want it to go faster. Like, why don't you leave out the back seats, and A/C, all that crap is completely unnecessary and adds weight. We want the biggest fastest engine, and most aggressive tires and brakes, and it be awesome and sell like hotcakes.

Then, once produced, the same folks say: Hey, where is our blue tooth cappuccino maker? Why is this car so expensive, when it doesn't even come with A/C or a back seat! Why is this ride so harsh, why is the engine and road noise so loud. I mean, this car is fast and all, but it sucks to ride around in on a trip to the car fest.

And then they don't buy it.

The fact is that the more hard core you make a car, the less it will sell, EVEN TO THE FOLKS THAT WANT A HARDCORE CAR.

When ford re-introduced the GT350, twice as many tech pack cars sold than track pack. Think about that. Folks bought a track car with all the luxury trimmings, not a stripped down car.

If the 5th Gen Z/28 had options to put luxury items back in the car, or came with luxury bits, but had options to remove them, it would have sold more. Everyone wants and loves a stripped down track car, but no one buys them.

There are diehard's that do buy them too, but in small numbers, and that's what GM need's to find out what is the right amount of cars to build, as for the car with all the options, that car is the ZL1LE, and its a good car too.

[JusticePete]

IMO, the Z/28 was built as a parts car and was a success.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by travislambert

Your concern for meeting emissions standards seems reasonable. I'm not extremely knowledgeable about the subject, but I know emissions are a factor. There's no doubt it would be a challenge.

As for cost, I don't see that engine as raising the cost all that much. That engine has to have a ridiculous amount of retail markup that wouldn't necessarily add to the cost if GM were to produce something similar.

Yep that would be the constraint on a NA motor making the car faster than the Z1LE. GM already tried to build a 600+ engine for the Z06. They hit the power goal, but the engine wouldn't pass emissions. That is why the Z06 uses the LT4. IF the Z/28 needs to be the ultimate track weapon, I just don't see it happening NA. And in the 5th Gen, they made a very big deal that the Z/28 needs to be NA.

Now if they decide to say F it about the NA, they can just throw the LT5 in it, or the DOHC turbo engine from the Mid engine vette. But a NA Camaro with enough horsepower to be faster than the ZLE is a very tall order and one I just don't see happening.

Originally Posted by JusticePete

IMO, the Z/28 was built as a parts car and was a success.

Z/28 was a great PR success, great success at lap times. IMO it was a sales failure. A car that good, they shouldn't have had to offer 20% off on.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Z/28 was a great PR success, great success at lap times. IMO it was a sales failure. A car that good, they shouldn't have had to offer 20% off on.

I could be wrong, but I don't think they ever expected to sell many Zs. They did expect to sell a lot of parts.

[FNxR3DNECK]

A big part of the sales problem was good initial sales and the early hype. They built much fewer #s in 14' and they sold very well so Chevy thought they could build/sale even more for 15', but by then the hype had faded a bit. So same price + less demand + more supply was the perfect storm for lackluster sales.

[JusticePete]

The ZL1 ILE is a better business case. They will sell quite a few and the GM parts bin for upgrades is really deep. GM want to own the aftermarket. The prices of their crate engines are ridiculous and most come with a two year warranty.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

I could be wrong, but I don't think they ever expected to sell many Zs. They did expect to sell a lot of parts.

Your right, they didn't expect to sell a lot and add the fact they probably way over produced them. A car that good at the time, should have never had to sit and collect dust on showroom floors like they did

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The ZL1 ILE is a better business case. They will sell quite a few and the GM parts bin for upgrades is really deep. GM want to own the aftermarket. The prices of their crate engines are ridiculous and most come with a two year warranty.

It also has creature comforts which regardless of the cars purpose, people expect in a 70K car

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Your right, they didn't expect to sell a lot and add the fact they probably way over produced them. A car that good at the time, should have never had to sit and collect dust on showroom floors like they did

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

A lot of the cars that sat at showroom floors was do to there setting a 5K to 25K mark up on the cars, i know of 4 dealers that got 2015 Z/28 and had them at that mark up only to trade the cars to dealers that had what they wanted, when GM did the 20% off they where still trying to sell them for $60K + its there right to do it, but that is what happened to the car sales too.

[Quinten_33]

Well what if the Z/28 was a special order car? Stripping it down and making it a hardcore track car can make sense if they only produce as many Z/28’s as customers order. No dealer markups, no GM discounts, no $5000/year depreciation, and no selling allocations for profit. The Z/28 doesn’t need to win the marketing game, it just needs to be a Z/28. It worked with the IROC Z, didn’t it?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Quinten_33

Well what if the Z/28 was a special order car? Stripping it down and making it a hardcore track car can make sense if they only produce as many Z/28’s as customers order. No dealer markups, no GM discounts, no $5000/year depreciation, and no selling allocations for profit. The Z/28 doesn’t need to win the marketing game, it just needs to be a Z/28. It worked with the IROC Z, didn’t it?

At that point, to me it makes more sense to make it a COPO style car than a street car. If its going to be special order only, that doesn't make a good business case to me.

[90503]

The problem with the buying a "stripper car" these days is bass-ackwards. Instead of being less expensive, the Z/28 type "stripper" is outrageously expensive for being supposedly "stripped"....

V-8 stripper Camaros would sell like hot-cakes if you paid less for things being stripped out instead of paying way more...

The classic examples to me were the Road Runners of the 60s....stripped down, but lots of muscle....The appeal was their reduced price that came from being "stripped", but still a lot of V-8 power....Of course a very high priced, stripped car won't sell, why would it? They make no sense.

[Bhobbs]

That’s why I think putting in a similar interior to the 1SS 1LE would work. It’s not stripped out but it’s not loaded up, either.