Livernois Motorsports Poor Customer Service

[booneSS13]

Last year I purchased my h/c and email tune package from Livernois mainly because the previous owner that owned my vehicle which is a 2013 Camaro had previously had it dyno tuned by Livernois. I was told by Livernois that because the tune was done by them the ECU is locked and I would have to buy their tuning software to unlock it since I live out of state So I if you buy a car tuned by them and you live far from them like me be prepared to fork over 600$ for their software! So anyway, just went ahead and purchased a whole package from them and contrary to what I've heard and seen from previous builds by Livernois they provided me with pretty lackluster service!

#1 they sent me the wrong length pushrods. They actually sent me pushrods that were 2 different sizes! Eleven 7.425 pushrods and six 7.400! They assured me that my car would need 7.425" pushrods which after measuring myself which I should've done in the first place I found out I actually needed 7.385" pushrods.

#2 They forgot my cam bolts! Since they didn't overnight them I just had my engine builder buy them himself and had them give me a credit

#3 They didn't even send my tuning software! I call and ask about it after going through all the parts I ordered and THEN they tell me they're out of stock and I will have to wait another week to get it in or I could pay $100 more for their handheld device

After all of this I finally complain about it and they did nothing to fix it! They offered me a credit for the pushrods that I had to buy and and have overnight shipped by summit but did not reimburse shipping. After my engine failed which was an unknown cause I had them repair my heads which they told me would only be a "couple hundred bucks" and next thing I know I drop them off and I get a bill for around $400.

I really get the feeling that Livernois Motorsports has let their attitude get so arrogant due to all the fame they've gotten over the past decade or so that if you're not doing a huge high $$$ build they can care less about your business. They acted like I was just small potatoes and through the whole ordeal I didn't feel the least bit of sympathy from Livernois Motorsports for they're mistakes

I will no longer be doing business with Livernois!

[JLSuperfly]

Thanks for sharing.

[g8lover]

Sorry to hear that they did this to you... not unique for sure...

I had work done by them and then wanted by exhaust and cats back, they said they were stolen and i was out of luck..."sorry man" they said... no offer of discount, no money for them,, nothing..

then i wanted to have my ecm unlocked an put back to stock cause I was going somewhere else, and when they "tried" they said they couldnt cause there was something wrong with my ecm... but ecm worked fine.... just they couldnt access it... then come to find out they had a issue with their "server" or data storing and they lost all my stuff... again... "sorry man"...

[booneSS13]

Originally Posted by g8lover

Sorry to hear that they did this to you... not unique for sure...

I had work done by them and then wanted by exhaust and cats back, they said they were stolen and i was out of luck..."sorry man" they said... no offer of discount, no money for them,, nothing..

then i wanted to have my ecm unlocked an put back to stock cause I was going somewhere else, and when they "tried" they said they couldnt cause there was something wrong with my ecm... but ecm worked fine.... just they couldnt access it... then come to find out they had a issue with their "server" or data storing and they lost all my stuff... again... "sorry man"...

Wow that's messed up! that doesn't surprise me though. I got the same type of attitude you got about their mess ups. And that whole locking ECU deal is pretty much criminal! I believe it's a ploy to keep their customers married to them so that they can't go anywhere else. Now that you say that about what happened to your ECU I'm afraid that when I get my car running again and take it to the new tuner I'm planning on going to there's going to be an issue. And if there is I'm really going to be upset because I have to have the car towed 150mi to the tuner in Illinois since there's none locally near me in Iowa. They claim that I can just load my stock file onto my car with their software I purchased from them and it will be "unlocked". I guess we'll see if it works out that smoothly...

[booneSS13]

Originally Posted by JLSuperfly

Thanks for sharing.

no problem I just don't want someone else to have to unknowingly go through the same thing

[willhe64]

[strike]Livernois[/strike]

[Livernois Motorsports]

OK, just want to clear some things up, so see below

Originally Posted by booneSS13

Last year I purchased my h/c and email tune package from Livernois mainly because the previous owner that owned my vehicle which is a 2013 Camaro had previously had it dyno tuned by Livernois. I was told by Livernois that because the tune was done by them the ECU is locked and I would have to buy their tuning software to unlock it since I live out of state So I if you buy a car tuned by them and you live far from them like me be prepared to fork over 600$ for their software! So anyway, just went ahead and purchased a whole package from them and contrary to what I've heard and seen from previous builds by Livernois they provided me with pretty lackluster service!

We don't "lock" our ECM. We have proprietary software that changes some of the structuring and features in the ECM around, and therefor when someone else tries to read or write, it fails because it's not compatible. This is quite different than a lock. Also, we always, absolutely always offer to return an ECM back to stock for people. We aren't doing it to hold people hostage. Additionally, you did not pay $600, you were given a heavily discounted price since we had tuned the car in the past, essentially you paid for the hardware, and we grandfathered in the tuning because you were buying parts from us.

Originally Posted by booneSS13

#1 they sent me the wrong length pushrods. They actually sent me pushrods that were 2 different sizes! Eleven 7.425 pushrods and six 7.400! They assured me that my car would need 7.425" pushrods which after measuring myself which I should've done in the first place I found out I actually needed 7.385" pushrods.

We never tell people what length pushrods they are going to need. We do state that we are including what the most common one is, but we always tell people they have to measure. As for getting the incorrect pushrods, we apologize, and we worked through a few scenarios to get you situated with what you needed as quickly as we could. At the end of the day, we are the first to admit that we are human.

Originally Posted by booneSS13

#2 They forgot my cam bolts! Since they didn't overnight them I just had my engine builder buy them himself and had them give me a credit

Again, we are human, we landed on an option to get you your bolts the same day, rather than waiting for them to show up, I am not certain what better option there was for that. You got them the soonest way we could potentially get them to you. Most companies would have shipped you the part rather than finding a solution to get you up and running the same day.

Originally Posted by booneSS13

#3 They didn't even send my tuning software! I call and ask about it after going through all the parts I ordered and THEN they tell me they're out of stock and I will have to wait another week to get it in or I could pay $100 more for their handheld device

When ordered, we informed you that the interface would be shipping direct from the manufacturer to help save time rather than getting it in first, and then shipping it out. Or, holding up the entire order. Again, we chose the most expedient path to get you the parts you needed. I am not certain how you mention we didn't tell you that. These were different orders placed on different days entirely.

Originally Posted by booneSS13

After all of this I finally complain about it and they did nothing to fix it! They offered me a credit for the pushrods that I had to buy and and have overnight shipped by summit but did not reimburse shipping. After my engine failed which was an unknown cause I had them repair my heads which they told me would only be a "couple hundred bucks" and next thing I know I drop them off and I get a bill for around $400.

On the pushrods, you bought replacement ones first, and then informed us that you expected to be reimbursed rather than letting us ship you a set. Eventually, you brought us back a used, incomplete set. We still issued a partial credit in-spite of this, and that it had been over 4 months. As for the cylinder heads, you were sent a price of ~$420 which you approved before any work was completed. Our inspect and report costs sound about right for the $200 mark, but that would not have been counting in any repair. But, you had the price in writing and agreed to it, so I am not certain why you are portraying it as a surprise.

Originally Posted by booneSS13

I really get the feeling that Livernois Motorsports has let their attitude get so arrogant due to all the fame they've gotten over the past decade or so that if you're not doing a huge high $$$ build they can care less about your business. They acted like I was just small potatoes and through the whole ordeal I didn't feel the least bit of sympathy from Livernois Motorsports for they're mistakes

I am definitely sorry you feel this way, but it couldn't have been further from the truth. The head repairs would have normally been close to $1000 due to the level of damage. The interface was discounted, and we even offered discounted engine building and dyno tuning to help.

All because of you getting the raw deal on your install from someone else as the community outlined in this thread http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416947

We didn't create these issues outlined in the other thread, and we do try to help people, but to say we did nothing, and to paint us like this isn't fair. We definitely did far more than any company out there would ever do for a customer, and tried our best to help you through loads of issues from outside sources.

Originally Posted by booneSS13

I will no longer be doing business with Livernois!

We definitely never like to hear this. We just don't want to see you have a repeat of the last failure from getting things done quickly, and cheaply. We are always there for our customers, so if there is anything we can do to help in the future, just feel free to ask.

[booneSS13]

Livernois, I never said that it was you guy's fault for my engine failure to clear that up.

I can assure you that the particular individual I was dealing with never told me about measuring the push rods. all that was said to me was that the 7.425" pushrods will be included in the package when we were itemizing everything before the order. I wasn't told that until after I called and asked you guys about valve train noise. Why would I even order the pushrods in the first place if I was told to measure them first.

You told me that it would be shipped directly from the manufacturer but did not tell me it wouldn't get shipped for another 9 days. And why when I called you (I don't want to put his name out there) the individual told me that the software is on back order. If what you're saying is true that it came directly from the manufacturer why does the FedEx return address and emaill say it came from your address? And why did the box have your signature livernois packaging tape around it? Why would you try to upsell me on another tuning device if the item was ordered and on it's way?

Never heard of $1000 for machining of one valve and smoothing out one combustion chameber area from debris damage. But I can tell you the guy at the counter said "we can't give you a price until our guys tear it down and take a look at it but it shouldn't be more than a couple hundred dollars" Next thing you know I get a call that they're finished with them and I'm told that the price Is $420. It would've been nice if I would've gotten a call and was told it will be $220 more dollars than I was told it should be before the work was started

I understand it was human error with the cam bolts. But on top of all the other issues it turned a small issue into a big issue.

You guys do offer to return the ecu to stock, but not for free. I understand what you are saying about the proprietary software but regardless of what you guys are saying the reason is that your customers can't access they're ecu's after its still technically a lock. There's no reason the customer or the next buyer of the car shouldn't be able to access they're own ecu due to someone's tuning. I do believe there is another thread on this particular subject about you guys.

It would be nice if you guys would just own up to your mistakes with me as a customer. That was the biggest problem is that you guys act as if I should be "honored" to do business with you or something, and you have this kind of "oh well" attitude about the whole thing...

[Livernois Motorsports]

Originally Posted by booneSS13

Livernois, I never said that it was you guy's fault for my engine failure to clear that up.

I can assure you that the particular individual I was dealing with never told me about measuring the push rods. all that was said to me was that the 7.425" pushrods will be included in the package when we were itemizing everything before the order. I wasn't told that until after I called and asked you guys about valve train noise. Why would I even order the pushrods in the first place if I was told to measure them first.

You told me that it would be shipped directly from the manufacturer but did not tell me it wouldn't get shipped for another 9 days. And why when I called you (I don't want to put his name out there) the individual told me that the software is on back order. If what you're saying is true that it came directly from the manufacturer why does the FedEx return address and emaill say it came from your address? And why did the box have your signature livernois packaging tape around it? Why would you try to upsell me on another tuning device if the item was ordered and on it's way?

Never heard of $1000 for machining of one valve and smoothing out one combustion chameber area from debris damage. But I can tell you the guy at the counter said "we can't give you a price until our guys tear it down and take a look at it but it shouldn't be more than a couple hundred dollars" Next thing you know I get a call that they're finished with them and I'm told that the price Is $420. It would've been nice if I would've gotten a call and was told it will be $220 more dollars than I was told it should be before the work was started

I understand it was human error with the cam bolts. But on top of all the other issues it turned a small issue into a big issue.

You guys do offer to return the ecu to stock, but not for free. I understand what you are saying about the proprietary software but regardless of what you guys are saying the reason is that your customers can't access they're ecu's after its still technically a lock. There's no reason the customer or the next buyer of the car shouldn't be able to access they're own ecu due to someone's tuning. I do believe there is another thread on this particular subject about you guys.

It would be nice if you guys would just own up to your mistakes with me as a customer. That was the biggest problem is that you guys act as if I should be "honored" to do business with you or something, and you have this kind of "oh well" attitude about the whole thing...

I don't know that I fully understand the response. You mention we told you that it was shipping direct, yet in your earlier post you claimed we didn't tell you it wouldn't be shipping with the parts. Both cannot be true.

As for the shipping of the part, and why it had our label on it, that's a simple one. We ordered it as a drop ship, but we had an order out already for our inventory. When the inventory order arrived before your direct order had shipped, we chose the option to ship it from here to save time. Again, something we did to help, that is now being painted negatively.

As for the upselling of a different device, it was us offering an alternative to you to try to get it situated more quickly since the first, cheaper option was on back order.

As for the cost of the repair, you need to look into what's actually involved. We had to tear everything apart, an inspect/analyze everything since there was such a catastrophic failure of the engine. Then, we had to repair what we found, and prep everything to get situated, clean, and assemble. Ultimately you are talking about less than 1/6 of the total price of the heads in the first place to to all of this.

As for the pricing, you were never given an official estimate of $200. The repair was priced in september and completed in october. The price between those two dates did not change, and we have the emails to prove that. September is when you ok'd the work.

As for returning an ECM to stock, we have never, not once charged for this service. In fact, we even go so far as to suggest that the person includes a UPS for Fed Ex Pre-paid label for return shipping so they owe us absolutely nothing for the process. So maybe we didn't spell it out that it was free, but we absolutely never said there was a charge.

As for owning up to our mistakes, I believe we did. We shipped you the incorrect pushrods (as you mentioned, the grouping of 2 different sizes) and forgot the cam bolts. Both situations we offered solutions to address the issues at hand, however, nothing else you have mentioned is true.

There was clear communication that we didn't have the interface in stock, and that it would be a direct order for you.

There was a clear quote, approval by you for that quote, and zero deviation in final invoice price from that quote for the head work.

I don't think there is any company out there that would have done the things we did to try to help. Even though nothing we did caused the failure, we still did everything we could to try to help you. And we definitely don't have an oh well attitude on it. It is something we care about deeply, but when a customer starts making false claims against us, we have to challenge those claims. If this thread was about the pushrods, and the cam bolts alone, then you wouldn't see anything other than us stating the situation around it, and what we did to try to help. But there are far too many false claims for us to ignore.

[booneSS13]

Instead of trying to paint me as a liar on here I don't understand why you don't just own up to what you did wrong.... Maybe it's the arrogance that I was talking about in my first post that won't allow you to... The problem isn't that you made mistakes,the issue is just as g8lover stated above, you guys don't try to make anything right when there's a problem and you blame the customer everytime. NOT good customer service, and in this market customer service is what sells!


I NEVER said you didn't tell me you were shipping direct. I said that you didn't tell me It wasn't going even going to be shipped out for another week and 2 days. I have proof in the shipping confirmation emails that shows the dates that I received from you guys if you want me to post them on here as well. All this investors stuff you guys are saying now was not told to me at that time. The only thing you guys said is it was coming direct and that was it.

Never said I got an official price. I said that he told me it shouldn't be any more than a couple hundred dollars. That is false about you finishing them in October. You actually finished them in September and that's when I received the price AFTER you already finished them. I Also have emails to prove that as well!

I don't know if there is a miscommunication between your workers but I was not told about sending you guys an ecm free of charge. I was told that I had to purchase your software to be able to flash my computer back to stock! That's one of the reasons I did business with you in the first place instead of going local. I figured since I had to spend the money on the software I might as well have you remote tune it and purchase the other parts from you too since you guys had a good reputation.

You guys in my opinion didn't do enough to correct this situation. That was cool that I received a credit but there should of been some other type of compensation for the time and money for overnight shipping from summit I was out of as my car was sitting in the shop. I was not offered next day shipping which I should've been since they were your mistakes. The credit doesn't do me any good when I needed my parts right then and there Livernois

[Crim]

Perfect explanation Livernois. Some people you just can't please.

[booneSS13]

Originally Posted by Crim

Perfect explanation Livernois. Some people you just can't please.

Judging by your previous posts your a troll the jig is up. Have a Blessed day

[Crim]

Just call them like I see them.

You come on trying to trash a business yet end up looking like the a$$ yourself. Way to go sport.

[Livernois Motorsports]

Originally Posted by booneSS13

Instead of trying to paint me as a liar on here I don't understand why you don't just own up to what you did wrong.... Maybe it's the arrogance that I was talking about in my first post that won't allow you to... The problem isn't that you made mistakes,the issue is just as g8lover stated above, you guys don't try to make anything right when there's a problem and you blame the customer everytime. NOT good customer service, and in this market customer service is what sells!


I NEVER said you didn't tell me you were shipping direct. I said that you didn't tell me It wasn't going even going to be shipped out for another week and 2 days. I have proof in the shipping confirmation emails that shows the dates that I received from you guys if you want me to post them on here as well. All this investors stuff you guys are saying now was not told to me at that time. The only thing you guys said is it was coming direct and that was it.

Never said I got an official price. I said that he told me it shouldn't be any more than a couple hundred dollars. That is false about you finishing them in October. You actually finished them in September and that's when I received the price AFTER you already finished them. I Also have emails to prove that as well!

I don't know if there is a miscommunication between your workers but I was not told about sending you guys an ecm free of charge. I was told that I had to purchase your software to be able to flash my computer back to stock! That's one of the reasons I did business with you in the first place instead of going local. I figured since I had to spend the money on the software I might as well have you remote tune it and purchase the other parts from you too since you guys had a good reputation.

You guys in my opinion didn't do enough to correct this situation. That was cool that I received a credit but there should of been some other type of compensation for the time and money for overnight shipping from summit I was out of as my car was sitting in the shop. I was not offered next day shipping which I should've been since they were your mistakes. The credit doesn't do me any good when I needed my parts right then and there Livernois

At the end of the day, why we are taking our stance is you are trying to paint the positive things we did for you as a deviance. there were 2 legitimate mistakes that we made, but there are no companies that pay for downtime, nor do they pay for you to purchase parts from other companies, and reimburse expedited costs from other companies.

We are all for correcting mistakes, and helping, but you can't make a decision and then dictate that we must do something outside of normal policy. At the end of the day, we aren't even certain that the pushrods that you used, or didn't use were right or wrong because there were so many issues with the install performed, but we did our best to help tech, and support you throughout the build.

As for the price discrepancy, All documents are the same pricing, so I really don't know why there would be any thought that it would be $200 instead of $350. But, if you are meaning you had talked about repair before the heads were here, I could see someone saying if we went through them and everything was fine it could be $200. This would make sense for tear down, quick visual, washing components, and replacing seals. But, since there was damage that required component repair and replacing, it was not just a basic job.

There is nothing done on our part that was deviant, and while we do our best to ensure that we send everything out properly, things can happen. If the package were lost by fedex, would you ask them to pay for downtime for the car, or to have them pay for expedited replacement when you only paid for ground shipping? This is why proper planning is very important, and why when we are working on a vehicle, we don't bring it in, and especially don't start disassembly until all of the parts are in hand, and verified to be correct. unfortunately it's quite common in the marketplace for companies to do the opposite so they can rake in extra funds for the car tying up a hoist.

I don't know what more we could have done beyond refunding used parts, and paying for you to buy parts elsewhere to speed up the job. As for the interface for tuning, how are we to know what a manufacturer has in inventory unless they report back to us that it's on back order? We had no advance knowledge that their would be a delay, hence not communicating it up front. I don't understand why you're painting us offering an alternative, and our expedited solution for you as a negative rather than the positives they actually were.