[mariojmoe]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

800whp all motor gt350 is a typo, I. Assume 600?

He actually claimed 853 tbh and claimed to have a 2500 up twin turbo setup for when he blows his current motor, and had not 1 but 2 McLaren's. I'm not kidding either lol (maybe he was for real) but my bs meter was going off.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Lol

Mario still being Mario

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Are there Mustangs other than the Shelby that are getting marked up?

Of the Shelby’s that are getting marked up, are they extremely limited (R) or falsely presented as limited (15-16 non-R that turned into 17,18...)?

Are the people that are paying mark ups on limited production, expensive GT350Rs really “the general public”?

Are they paying mark ups because “Mustangs” are so “special” or are they fans scooping up rare, limited production cars looking at them as the next collectible?

Well some dealers are marking up the Bullitt, others are letting them go at MSRP. I am just curious as all. When I said general public what I meant at that dollar range price wise the car will attract more than just brand faithful, as does the ZL1 as did the Z/28 as does the Hellcat.

First Z/28's had mark ups, as did the Hellcat. Why did those cars markups go away so fast but the 350 and 350R Mark ups hung around so long

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Let's look at this another way. What is soo special about the GT350R that people will pay $10K and, in some cases, $20K over MSRP for? An "experience"? LOL! I'm not trying to be a smartass. I can see paying $5K over if a car is something special and rare and there is no other car on that level and you want a Mustang. Like with the ZR1. But I cannot see someone paying $20K extra just because they feel the GT350R is special. And if it was as special as people thought or think, then why are people getting rid of them, trading them in, etc? Especially after only a year or two. If I threw an extra $10K - $20K on a car then I sure as hell would hold on to it for quite a while. But that isn't the case with the R. If they're selling used at what the MSRP was new, then that means a loss of money. Not thru depreciation but a loss nonetheless. So why are people getting rid of these cars that they thought was special enough to pay a markup on a year or two ago??

The only thing that makes any sense is not that the car has some special appeal to it, but that they thought it would be a limited run and would increase in value. Like the Demon. Or, like I said, people who wanted the top dog Mustang and were not gonna settle for a GT had no other option. Like the Hellcat. The ZL1 fits into neither of these categories. The Hellcat and Demon did. People were paying up to $40K markups on Demons because they thought it would double or even triple in value. People thought the same thing about the Hellcat and in the case of the HC, there was no other performance option from Dodge. Plus people were thinking about the Ford GT which dramatically increased in value. So a lot of them were thinking that the GT350R would have a similar increase.

I think it is probably a combination of all the things that have been tossed around: Intitial thought of limited production(350), top end mustang, Limited Production 350R, and I think certain people just see the shelby name and think its something special, because like you and hotlap mentioned people probably thought they were getting the next collector car.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think you don't understand the term "for the record".

But anyway, it DID diminish. That much is obvious since you can find plenty of them at MSRP whereas a year ago you could not. If there is something special about the GT350R, then the GT500 would not be able to take that away. Especially since the GT500 is a completely different car. The GT350R would still be a special car. But it is not. When I ask what is soo special about the car, nobody can give me a direct answer. Is it fast? Like, blazing fast? Does it handle like nothing else on the planet? Does it brake like no other car? Is it worlds apart from it's competition? What gives?

Ask me what is special about the ZL1 and I'll round off a list of answers for you.

I am not trying to be a smartass either, but what is so special about the ZL1? It's a camaro, that has a corvette engine and a 10 speed automatic. It's incredibly well balanced car but nothing to me at least screams wow this is unique.

The 350 has the largest FPC V-8 in production(Take that for what it's worth LOL), and the R model was the first mass produced car to have Carbon Fiber Wheels, the front end on all 350's is unique from the A-pillar forward.

Just like the Z/28 was special because it had DSSV, Carbon ceramic brakes, thinner glass to cut weight etc etc


Also not trying to say you guys are wrong and I am right. Just advancing the conversation is all as I find it an interesting topic.

Originally Posted by hotlap

You could do the first S550, LTx engine swap.

LT367/535 HP, 470 lb-ft crate engine ~$9,100. Solve that no low end grunt problem

That would be a cool swap. Hell swapping an LT into anything is a cool swap. LT Miata!!!

[rfopt]

Originally Posted by shaffe

First Z/28's had mark ups, as did the Hellcat. Why did those cars markups go away so fast but the 350 and 350R Mark ups hung around so long

IMO, part of it could be contributed to a recall Ford had regarding the oil cooler line for some 15-early 17 GT350s. Some of the cars were temporarily unsold and had a temporary stop-sale. The car was still in high demand during this time and this ordeal made it even worse. However, even if this never occurred the markups still would have been around for awhile, just not as long. And at least in the case of the GT350R it seemed like they very slowly released them during each model year.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think it is probably a combination of all the things that have been tossed around: Intitial thought of limited production(350), top end mustang, Limited Production 350R, and I think certain people just see the shelby name and think its something special, because like you and hotlap mentioned people probably thought they were getting the next collector car.

I agree. The Shelby, Boss, and Cobra names on current/past mustangs are very strong in recognition in general, no matter how the car compared to it's competition.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by rfopt

IMO, part of it could be contributed to a recall Ford had regarding the oil cooler line for some 15-early 17 GT350s. Some of the cars were temporarily unsold and had a temporary stop-sale. The car was still in high demand during this time and this ordeal made it even worse. However, even if this never occurred the markups still would have been around for awhile, just not as long. And at least in the case of the GT350R it seemed like they very slowly released them during each model year.



I agree. The Shelby, Boss, and Cobra names on current/past mustangs are very strong in recognition in general, no matter how good the car was or how average the car is/was relative to it's competition.

I forgot about that stop-sale.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well some dealers are marking up the Bullitt, others are letting them go at MSRP. I am just curious as all. When I said general public what I meant at that dollar range price wise the car will attract more than just brand faithful, as does the ZL1 as did the Z/28 as does the Hellcat.

First Z/28's had mark ups, as did the Hellcat. Why did those cars markups go away so fast but the 350 and 350R Mark ups hung around so long






I think it is probably a combination of all the things that have been tossed around: Intitial thought of limited production(350), top end mustang, Limited Production 350R, and I think certain people just see the shelby name and think its something special, because like you and hotlap mentioned people probably thought they were getting the next collector car.



I am not trying to be a smartass either, but what is so special about the ZL1? It's a camaro, that has a corvette engine and a 10 speed automatic. It's incredibly well balanced car but nothing to me at least screams wow this is unique.

The 350 has the largest FPC V-8 in production(Take that for what it's worth LOL), and the R model was the first mass produced car to have Carbon Fiber Wheels, the front end on all 350's is unique from the A-pillar forward.

Just like the Z/28 was special because it had DSSV, Carbon ceramic brakes, thinner glass to cut weight etc etc


Also not trying to say you guys are wrong and I am right. Just advancing the conversation is all as I find it an interesting topic.




That would be a cool swap. Hell swapping an LT into anything is a cool swap. LT Miata!!!

I haven't found in my market high mark ups on the 350. If anything, they are willing to deal. I'm as we speak trying to work out financing on a '17 350 with 900 miles. $51k. To me, that's a steal. I prefer an '18, but they are in the 60's.


As far as the Zl1 goes, it's not about the Zl1 in of itself. It's what you are getting for a $65k car. There is NO other car on the planet at that price point that gives you the performance of the Zl1. It completely sauces the GT350 and GT350R. I'm only buying a 350 cus I want one. I could go Zl1 1LE, but I can't pass up a $51k 350 w/900 miles so. Besides, it's my grocery getter. The Zl1 will wreck shop and there is no denying that. Stock vs Stock they aren't even close. The Zl1 will send it every time and leave both 350's wondering what hit them. But, no denying the mean look of the 350. Love the look of it. I could care less that it's under powered.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

I haven't found in my market high mark ups on the 350. If anything, they are willing to deal. I'm as we speak trying to work out financing on a '17 350 with 900 miles. $51k. To me, that's a steal. I prefer an '18, but they are in the 60's.


As far as the Zl1 goes, it's not about the Zl1 in of itself. It's what you are getting for a $65k car. There is NO other car on the planet at that price point that gives you the performance of the Zl1. It completely sauces the GT350 and GT350R. I'm only buying a 350 cus I want one. I could go Zl1 1LE, but I can't pass up a $51k 350 w/900 miles so. Besides, it's my grocery getter. The Zl1 will wreck shop and there is no denying that. Stock vs Stock they aren't even close. The Zl1 will send it every time and leave both 350's wondering what hit them. But, no denying the mean look of the 350. Love the look of it. I could care less that it's under powered.

Well said, and to each their own. At the end of the day, both are great cars to be able to have!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well some dealers are marking up the Bullitt, others are letting them go at MSRP. I am just curious as all. When I said general public what I meant at that dollar range price wise the car will attract more than just brand faithful, as does the ZL1 as did the Z/28 as does the Hellcat.

First Z/28's had mark ups, as did the Hellcat. Why did those cars markups go away so fast but the 350 and 350R Mark ups hung around so long

There were other options for the Z28. It wasn't THAT much better in performance than the 5th Gen ZL1 (from what I remember) although being much more expensive and having none of the creature comforts. And at it's price and considering what you'd be buying it for there were Vettes you could get that were better (from what I remember). So there was no way the Z28 was gonna fetch the prices they thought it would. I honestly never even considered one. And I remember thinking they were extremely overpriced.

Hellcat markups lasted quite a while. I saw $10K markups on them in late 2016 when I was shopping for a SUV back then. And I remember them still being applied in early 17 when I got my ZL1. Which is why the first question I asked when my friend called me about the one I was buying was if there was a markup. So that makes it 15MY, 16MY, and early 17MY. Even when I got my 17 HC I had people asking me if there were still markups on them. So they did last for a bit of time. I'd say just almost the same amount of time as the markups on the GT350R. And if you count the Demon markups then it is the same amount of time if not more.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I am not trying to be a smartass either, but what is so special about the ZL1? It's a camaro, that has a corvette engine and a 10 speed automatic. It's incredibly well balanced car but nothing to me at least screams wow this is unique.

The 350 has the largest FPC V-8 in production(Take that for what it's worth LOL), and the R model was the first mass produced car to have Carbon Fiber Wheels, the front end on all 350's is unique from the A-pillar forward.

Like kttxz06 mentioned, it is everything you get with the ZL1. There is no car in it's price range that can beat it at anything performance related stock for stock. And it comes in at a cheaper price than it's main two competitors. While the Voodoo engine is a bit more unique, there is no denying that the VD engine has been riddled with problems. Which makes me wonder if Ford should have pushed it the way they did. But anyway, the LT4, while not as unique, is a wonderful engine with great power and no reliability issues at all. The amount of performance they got out of it without having to sacrifice anything and while being fully optioned is impressive. So from a performance perspective, for the ZL1 to be able to beat a straight line car like the Hellcat in a quarter mile while beating a track focused car like the GT350R on a track and to be fully optioned and come in at a cheaper price says a lot about how special the car is. And it says a lot about how much design GM put into it. Unfortunately tho, it is still a Camaro and will always be overshadowed by the upper tier Vettes.

[mlee]

Originally Posted by mariojmoe

He actually claimed 853 tbh and claimed to have a 2500 up twin turbo setup for when he blows his current motor, and had not 1 but 2 McLaren's. I'm not kidding either lol (maybe he was for real) but my bs meter was going off.

Too funny... I ran into this guy two months ago at The Woodlands Mkt Street meet. He 1st said his HP was a secret and then was all over the place with it due to this issue and that issue. He's completely full of shit and we ended up with a ton of laughs out of the conversation. His BS got even better with that twin turbo stuff when my buddy pointed out his > 1,200 rwhp Lambo... BTW that Lambo just went over 200 in the half mile.

[mariojmoe]

Originally Posted by mlee

Too funny... I ran into this guy two months ago at The Woodlands Mkt Street meet. He 1st said his HP was a secret and then was all over the place with it due to this issue and that issue. He's completely full of shit and we ended up with a ton of laughs out of the conversation. His BS got even better with that twin turbo stuff when my buddy pointed out his > 1,200 rwhp Lambo... BTW that Lambo just went over 200 in the half mile.

Lol omg yup that's definitely him. He went on and on about his warehouse in Dallas where he stores his cars bc be has a custom built Raptor that has 65k worth of mods, a newer f250 diesel to tow his race trailer blah blah blah. He lost me with the 2 McLaren s' and fastest all motor gt350 in the world and 2500 hp tt build. All of this started over people taking pics of my bone stock ctsv (I was next to him parked) and my car got quite a bit of attention) I'm guessing he got salty bc he all but bad mouthed my car lol.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

There were other options for the Z28. It wasn't THAT much better in performance than the 5th Gen ZL1 (from what I remember) although being much more expensive and having none of the creature comforts. And at it's price and considering what you'd be buying it for there were Vettes you could get that were better (from what I remember). So there was no way the Z28 was gonna fetch the prices they thought it would. I honestly never even considered one. And I remember thinking they were extremely overpriced.

Hellcat markups lasted quite a while. I saw $10K markups on them in late 2016 when I was shopping for a SUV back then. And I remember them still being applied in early 17 when I got my ZL1. Which is why the first question I asked when my friend called me about the one I was buying was if there was a markup. So that makes it 15MY, 16MY, and early 17MY. Even when I got my 17 HC I had people asking me if there were still markups on them. So they did last for a bit of time. I'd say just almost the same amount of time as the markups on the GT350R. And if you count the Demon markups then it is the same amount of time if not more.


Like kttxz06 mentioned, it is everything you get with the ZL1. There is no car in it's price range that can beat it at anything performance related stock for stock. And it comes in at a cheaper price than it's main two competitors. While the Voodoo engine is a bit more unique, there is no denying that the VD engine has been riddled with problems. Which makes me wonder if Ford should have pushed it the way they did. But anyway, the LT4, while not as unique, is a wonderful engine with great power and no reliability issues at all. The amount of performance they got out of it without having to sacrifice anything and while being fully optioned is impressive. So from a performance perspective, for the ZL1 to be able to beat a straight line car like the Hellcat in a quarter mile while beating a track focused car like the GT350R on a track and to be fully optioned and come in at a cheaper price says a lot about how special the car is. And it says a lot about how much design GM put into it. Unfortunately tho, it is still a Camaro and will always be overshadowed by the upper tier Vettes.

I guess we have different ideas on what makes a car special and thats not a bad thing. None of the things you listed to me, make the ZL1 a special car. They make it a fantastic car, a great performance car but there is nothing unique about the car. I know people hate this term, but they went to the parts bin and put it together in an amazing package. I will admit the level of performance the car offers is special, but nothing about the car itself is special if that makes sense.

I guess to me a special car has to have things that are unique or exclusive to it. Like mentioned, the 350 has the biggest FPC V-8 in production. The Z/28 had DSSV shocks, trofeo's carbon ceramic brakes, The Hellcat at the time had the most powerful production V-8, along with the fact you could say it has over 700HP from the factory, the demon had the demon crate, the ZLE has DSSV etc etc those things make those cars special

[Lafourche1]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I guess to me a special car has to have things that are unique or exclusive to it.

For me, owning the greatest performance bargain on the planet is pretty special. My ~$65K ride can embarrass everything from a Hellcat, to a 911 to a R8, to a Corvette or to a GT350R. That is kinda special to me.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

For me, owning the greatest performance bargain on the planet is pretty special. My ~$65K ride can embarrass everything from a Hellcat, to a 911 to a R8, to a Corvette or to a GT350R. That is kinda special to me.

and that's awesome! I'm not going to try and change your mind. We just have different views on what makes a car special is all

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I guess we have different ideas on what makes a car special and thats not a bad thing. None of the things you listed to me, make the ZL1 a special car. They make it a fantastic car, a great performance car but there is nothing unique about the car. I know people hate this term, but they went to the parts bin and put it together in an amazing package. I will admit the level of performance the car offers is special, but nothing about the car itself is special if that makes sense.

I guess to me a special car has to have things that are unique or exclusive to it. Like mentioned, the 350 has the biggest FPC V-8 in production. The Z/28 had DSSV shocks, trofeo's carbon ceramic brakes, The Hellcat at the time had the most powerful production V-8, along with the fact you could say it has over 700HP from the factory, the demon had the demon crate, the ZLE has DSSV etc etc those things make those cars special

I get it. But so far shaffe, all you have said that makes the GT350R "special" is the Shelby nameplate that you say people are willing to pay more for. That engine is NOT special. Why? Because the only thing different from it and other FPC engines is displacement. It's a bigger engine and that is it. What is soo special about a larger displacement FPC engine that you think people are willing to pay up to $20K over MSRP for? I think you're putting more stock into the GT350 than you realize. If it was as special as you think it is, then why did those of us who are on this forum and who were considering it refuse to pay markups on it? Why did we choose the ZL1 over it? Why did people choose the Hellcat, Z06s, GTRs, etc over paying even a dime extra for a GT350R? And, why is it now selling at MSRP? Why didn't Ford raise the price of them if they were worth soo much more than what they originally charged? And why is it that for their price they are not as fast as cheaper cars that are not marked up?

I mean, I'm not gonna knock you for your thoughts. But if it was special and worth more than MSRP then I and others would have bought one. Even now, at MSRP, I would buy a ZL1 over the GT350R. If the GT350R had a MSRP of $60K, I would still have bought the ZL1 over it. And kttxz06, if the GT350 was soo special he would have jumped on that price of it used instead of trying to talk them down. So I'm not seeing your POV. To me, Ford fanatics bought it because, like I said, if you want a top level Mustang you're not buying a GT. And because they thought it would increase in value at some point instead of decreasing. But I find it hard to believe that they paid those markups for a large displacement FPC engine and a Shelby nameplate just to lose that money and trade it in shortly after buying it. That to me means that they were trying to ditch it before it lost even more value.