complaints about lack of power....

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

Depends on who you ask. Some of the GM folks and GM techs say that the ECM's keep track of when they are removed, put in, and the miles put on the ECM. If this true then keeping the factory ECM for warranty work is pointless as they can deny your claim. Some dealers won't care if you tune it or not as long as it doesn't break anything, some will deny every claim for the smallest thing they can find.

+1

I remember reading about it on the Corvette boards.

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by leviticus88

Look for gm (LS-LT) tuners who have a Dyno and a good history of tuning these types of motors. Most likely smaller speed shops or huge companies like hennessy.

Awesome! Thanks for the quick replies guys!

[jpgoins]

Originally Posted by LS3SSRS

im fairly sure a tech ll will do the crank relearn for swapping PCMs. i dont know if they can tune as well?

Unfortunately, the Camaro is a whole new animal and can only be programmed with GM's new MDI. As a matter of fact, I have been told that the Tech 2 doesn't even work on the Camaro (or '10 Equinox/SRX/Terrain, '10 LaCrosse). However, I have 2 setup at my lab. If you need it, let me know....

[jpgoins]

Originally Posted by leviticus88

Warranty work pays a lot less than non-warranty time, some dealers are just @$$holes about it! Aka: Hajek Chevrolet in CO.

All this information is vital to fixing the A6 performance issue! Good job and keep it coming!

PS: Although a lot of people do it and it most likely will work, switching PCM's to keep your warranty is just not moral if your tune ends up breaking your car. I have heard of cobalt owners installing turbos on sc models and then blowing the motor and switching everything back to stock for warranty work. Thats just wrong... my .02 cents.

The problem is (from the dealer vs. corporate standpoint) that there are people paid to inspect any major warranty claims to see if there is any way GM can deny paying the dealer for the warranty work. Even if your dealer does the work, they still have to show a viable fault on the vehicle. If they can't prove that the fault was because of a faulty product, GM just denies the warranty claim and the end result is the dealer pays for it out of pocket. Heads thend to roll when this happens.

As far as the immorality of swapping parts back and forth to cover for yourself, in forced induction applications, I agree. doing a tune to a LS3/L99 has been done by several companies (along with exhaust and intake upgrades) that has netted some AMAZING increases. Check out the articles on Camaro5 homepage (archive possibly). 50 RWHP?! As long as the emissions controls aren't deleted, I don't see how that could cause any damage. GM has always been conservative in their programming. The Duramax, for instance. Talk about an overbuilt motor! The only problem that I would see as far as getting a blank ECM/PCM would be a descrepancy in engine hours. But just a tune, in my opinion, would not cause any damage with our Camaros. I love getting into discussions like this!

[alrox]

Originally Posted by Ject

Soooooo after reading everything.. I'm seeing that one should buy a 2nd ECM.. and have it programed / tuned to improve the cars performance.... and pull your stock on out and save it until you need to go in for warranty work ???

No. He is telling you to commit warranty fraud. Chevy is not your personal race team. You must pay to play.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by jpgoins

The problem is (from the dealer vs. corporate standpoint) that there are people paid to inspect any major warranty claims to see if there is any way GM can deny paying the dealer for the warranty work. Even if your dealer does the work, they still have to show a viable fault on the vehicle. If they can't prove that the fault was because of a faulty product, GM just denies the warranty claim and the end result is the dealer pays for it out of pocket. Heads thend to roll when this happens.

As far as the immorality of swapping parts back and forth to cover for yourself, in forced induction applications, I agree. doing a tune to a LS3/L99 has been done by several companies (along with exhaust and intake upgrades) that has netted some AMAZING increases. Check out the articles on Camaro5 homepage (archive possibly). 50 RWHP?! As long as the emissions controls aren't deleted, I don't see how that could cause any damage. GM has always been conservative in their programming. The Duramax, for instance. Talk about an overbuilt motor! The only problem that I would see as far as getting a blank ECM/PCM would be a descrepancy in engine hours. But just a tune, in my opinion, would not cause any damage with our Camaros. I love getting into discussions like this!

Sorry, but I had to respond to the two points I bolded.

First, GM is NOT trying to deny claims. GM takes steps to make sure that the dealer is actually making the repairs, but if you have a problem DO NOT THINK FOR A MINUTE GM will try to not have the claim paid or put your dealer in situation where it is out of pocket. Now if the dealer fixes something on your car that isn't wrong and trys to charge GM for it that is another story.

Second, there is a reason why the engine comes from the factory as it is. It is a very well balanced calibration for power, fuel economy and emissions. It is done so that an engine starts and performs well in International Fall MN in January and Phoenix AZ in July. It is also done to ensure durability and reliability.

These aftermarket "tunes" aren't magic. GM could do this as well if it met FE and was durable. It's the same as putting on an aftermarket exhaust. GM could easily do that for you but it would violate Federal requirements and not be salable.

Will your engine blow up if you put in a "tune", no. Will it be equally durable, no way. Adding torque to a drive train increases the loads. It is that simple. Why do you think the automatic trans in the CTS-V is different than the one in the Camaro.

So yes, these guys can sell you a "tune" for a few hundred bucks. But they can't tell you it passes all of the GM durability test that were done on your Camaro, hence the warranty issue.

Don't get me wrong, I had an optional ROM for my 87 Grand National. It added boost and let the engine knock more. But I also knew it was at a price.

[speedster]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry, but I had to respond to the two points I bolded.

First, GM is NOT trying to deny claims. GM takes steps to make sure that the dealer is actually making the repairs, but if you have a problem DO NOT THINK FOR A MINUTE GM will try to not have the claim paid or put your dealer in situation where it is out of pocket. Now if the dealer fixes something on your car that isn't wrong and trys to charge GM for it that is another story.

Second, there is a reason why the engine comes from the factory as it is. It is a very well balanced calibration for power, fuel economy and emissions. It is done so that an engine starts and performs well in International Fall MN in January and Phoenix AZ in July. It is also done to ensure durability and reliability.

These aftermarket "tunes" aren't magic. GM could do this as well if it met FE and was durable. It's the same as putting on an aftermarket exhaust. GM could easily do that for you but it would violate Federal requirements and not be salable.

Will your engine blow up if you put in a "tune", no. Will it be equally durable, no way. Adding torque to a drive train increases the loads. It is that simple. Why do you think the automatic trans in the CTS-V is different than the one in the Camaro.

So yes, these guys can sell you a "tune" for a few hundred bucks. But they can't tell you it passes all of the GM durability test that were done on your Camaro, hence the warranty issue.

Don't get me wrong, I had an optional ROM for my 87 Grand National. It added boost and let the engine knock more. But I also knew it was at a price.

+1 Thank You Number 3. Many people miss these points.

[SSRider]

Originally Posted by DocHollliday

Hey guys...this is a great thread for newbies like myself to get some real insight. I certainly appreciate all the knowledge that is being passed. I have what is likely a simple question which is, how much more HP can one expect to see as a result from a professional tune? Will it be enough to notice the difference in the SOTP?

Thanks Gents, and FYI I will be getting the 2SS with the manual 6 speed.

This is a subjective question. Subjective to the modifications that have been added to the vehicle. So let's say no mods for conversation. Well I have read threads from performance shops that are claiming about 20rwhp, this is believable to me. Also you will feel it in the SOTP not just because of the additional hp/tq but most likely better throttle response.

[CGM2SSRS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry, but I had to respond to the two points I bolded.

First, GM is NOT trying to deny claims. GM takes steps to make sure that the dealer is actually making the repairs, but if you have a problem DO NOT THINK FOR A MINUTE GM will try to not have the claim paid or put your dealer in situation where it is out of pocket. Now if the dealer fixes something on your car that isn't wrong and trys to charge GM for it that is another story.

Second, there is a reason why the engine comes from the factory as it is. It is a very well balanced calibration for power, fuel economy and emissions. It is done so that an engine starts and performs well in International Fall MN in January and Phoenix AZ in July. It is also done to ensure durability and reliability.

These aftermarket "tunes" aren't magic. GM could do this as well if it met FE and was durable. It's the same as putting on an aftermarket exhaust. GM could easily do that for you but it would violate Federal requirements and not be salable.

Will your engine blow up if you put in a "tune", no. Will it be equally durable, no way. Adding torque to a drive train increases the loads. It is that simple. Why do you think the automatic trans in the CTS-V is different than the one in the Camaro.

So yes, these guys can sell you a "tune" for a few hundred bucks. But they can't tell you it passes all of the GM durability test that were done on your Camaro, hence the warranty issue.

Don't get me wrong, I had an optional ROM for my 87 Grand National. It added boost and let the engine knock more. But I also knew it was at a price.

I feel compelled to respond to something in your post. To say that for instance the camaro discussed will be less,"durable" with a performance oriented upgrade,ie; LT headers,tune and CAI is quite frankly an ignorant comment.
If you can lower the operating temperature of any air pump it will become not only more efficient but durable as well. As long as the tune is to only optimize the upgrades, not exceed them.

[jpgoins]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry, but I had to respond to the two points I bolded.

First, GM is NOT trying to deny claims. GM takes steps to make sure that the dealer is actually making the repairs, but if you have a problem DO NOT THINK FOR A MINUTE GM will try to not have the claim paid or put your dealer in situation where it is out of pocket. Now if the dealer fixes something on your car that isn't wrong and trys to charge GM for it that is another story.

Second, there is a reason why the engine comes from the factory as it is. It is a very well balanced calibration for power, fuel economy and emissions. It is done so that an engine starts and performs well in International Fall MN in January and Phoenix AZ in July. It is also done to ensure durability and reliability.

These aftermarket "tunes" aren't magic. GM could do this as well if it met FE and was durable. It's the same as putting on an aftermarket exhaust. GM could easily do that for you but it would violate Federal requirements and not be salable.

Will your engine blow up if you put in a "tune", no. Will it be equally durable, no way. Adding torque to a drive train increases the loads. It is that simple. Why do you think the automatic trans in the CTS-V is different than the one in the Camaro.

So yes, these guys can sell you a "tune" for a few hundred bucks. But they can't tell you it passes all of the GM durability test that were done on your Camaro, hence the warranty issue.

Don't get me wrong, I had an optional ROM for my 87 Grand National. It added boost and let the engine knock more. But I also knew it was at a price.

Speedster, you are absolutely right. There is always a tradeoff. When you increase power, there is a loss in fuel efficiency, as well as a chance of moving past the safe threshhold in component durability. Specifically in the Camaro's case, however, the TR6060 6 speed manual is rated at a max of 550 ft/lb of torque. The rear diff/subframe assy is identical to a CTS-V, which as we all know, handles 551 ft/lb of torque. The LS motor, well, no description needed. And unfortunately, being involved as a third party in warranty claim issues, I have to disagree with you concerning the claim denial. With the appearance of a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty, many things changed. Built in checks for changes in calibrations, including trouble codes for unrecognized calibration. In the case of the Duramax, the emissions controls and injectors are so sensitive and expensive that there are specific guidelines for faults relating to these components. There have been bulletins specifically generated to reduce warranty costs related to aftermarket changes.

I apologize to anyone for any offense I have caused... I made a faulty assumption that the people making these mods knew that they had a chance of having their warranty voided. However, GM is protecting themselves from this and have gone to great lengths to do so. I have seen warranties voided (look at a GM VIS, there is a dedicated page for branding warranties) for a number of things. I guess what I am saying is BEAN COUNTERS ARE BEAN COUNTERS. Their job is to reduce costs. If they can't do their job, then they will find someone who can. Know that GM WILL void a warranty and deny payment on a claim if there is evidence of an unauthorized modification.

I really enjoy these discussions. This is what having a community is all about. I AM NOT AN EXPERT. This is just one guy offering what he knows and has learned. I learn alot from this site, and appreciate the education you guys give me.

[Kenny]

Originally Posted by CGM2SSRS

I feel compelled to respond to something in your post. To say that for instance the camaro discussed will be less,"durable" with a performance oriented upgrade,ie; LT headers,tune and CAI is quite frankly an ignorant comment.
If you can lower the operating temperature of any air pump it will become not only more efficient but durable as well. As long as the tune is to only optimize the upgrades, not exceed them.

I think he was refering to extra load on drive train components which would cause them to wear out/fail sooner.

[CGM2SSRS]

Originally Posted by jpgoins

Speedster, you are absolutely right. There is always a tradeoff. When you increase power, there is a loss in fuel efficiency, as well as a chance of moving past the safe threshhold in component durability. Specifically in the Camaro's case, however, the TR6060 6 speed manual is rated at a max of 550 ft/lb of torque. The rear diff/subframe assy is identical to a CTS-V, which as we all know, handles 551 ft/lb of torque. The LS motor, well, no description needed. And unfortunately, being involved as a third party in warranty claim issues, I have to disagree with you concerning the claim denial. With the appearance of a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty, many things changed. Built in checks for changes in calibrations, including trouble codes for unrecognized calibration. In the case of the Duramax, the emissions controls and injectors are so sensitive and expensive that there are specific guidelines for faults relating to these components. There have been bulletins specifically generated to reduce warranty costs related to aftermarket changes.

I apologize to anyone for any offense I have caused... I made a faulty assumption that the people making these mods knew that they had a chance of having their warranty voided. However, GM is protecting themselves from this and have gone to great lengths to do so. I have seen warranties voided (look at a GM VIS, there is a dedicated page for branding warranties) for a number of things. I guess what I am saying is BEAN COUNTERS ARE BEAN COUNTERS. Their job is to reduce costs. If they can't do their job, then they will find someone who can. Know that GM WILL void a warranty and deny payment on a claim if there is evidence of an unauthorized modification.

I really enjoy these discussions. This is what having a community is all about. I AM NOT AN EXPERT. This is just one guy offering what he knows and has learned. I learn alot from this site, and appreciate the education you guys give me.

You don't lose fuel efficiency when you open restricted air coming in or going out. Just the opposite.

[CGM2SSRS]

Originally Posted by Kenny

I think he was refering to extra load on drive train components which would cause them to wear out/fail sooner.

This would also be false. We are not talking about adding mechanical parts to increase power. We are talking about increasing EFFICIENCY by allowing the air pump (motor) to breathe better. The tune is simply used to readjust air/fuel parameters to accommodate the changes. Bottom line? Making an efficient, performance economical and reliable car more so. The reason GM doesn't do these things in the first place? Cost, big brothers demands/making concessions and so the parts guy's can make a living, jobs.
GM knows were out here doing this. That is why the internals are designed to handle 550 rear wheel HP.

[jpgoins]

Originally Posted by CGM2SSRS

This would also be false. We are not talking about adding mechanical parts to increase power. We are talking about increasing EFFICIENCY by allowing the air pump (motor) to breathe better. The tune is simply used to readjust air/fuel parameters to accommodate the changes. Bottom line? Making an efficient, performance economical and reliable car more so. The reason GM doesn't do these things in the first place? Cost, big brothers demands/making concessions and so the parts guy's can make a living, jobs. GM knows were out here doing this. That is why the internals are designed to handle 550 rear wheel HP.

Amen, brother. You hit the nail on the head.

As far as the previous comment, the only thing I'd have to disagree on is that when you unrestrict air passage, you have to have more fuel to compensate. That being said, the increase in efficiency produced by uncorking the air pump (good analogy, BTW) would offset that some.