complaints about lack of power....

[jpgoins]

Good morning Camaroheads!
A couple of things to consider concerning lack of power. First and foremost, there needs to be consideration for the powertrain warranty. 100,000 miles. Obviously, there are many technically knowledgable people on this site. And for those of you that have been involved with other GM vehicles over the last 4 to 5 years, you are woefully familiar to TORQUE MANAGEMENT. This is GM's built in protection program against excessive warranty claims concerning powertrain. A very good friend of mine has an 08 Silverado Vortec Max. This thing is just sad. An L76 6.0 should be able to rip the hides off from a standstill. Nope. Barely a chirp, even in tow/haul with TCS/VSC off. Rediculous. So, in for a reputable dyno tune. Spins through first and into second, with the 1/2 shift causing a scary tail wag. Downside: if he takes it in with that dyno tune, GM has built in a history burn that a GM tech can see that the update is not a match with the GM calibration. He was smart and bought a blank ECM. TCM is a different story, but with the torque management brought close to zero, he chose not to modify TCM programming. Besides, to swap out the TCM in a 6 speed, you would have to pull the valve body! (internal).
Anyhow, a proper tune should really wake up those L99/6As. Do yourself a favor though, buy a blank ECM.
Second, and I don't know if this is just a fluke, but when my dad's came in from Area 51, the MAF was unplugged. His had 37 miles on it. I wonder if there is a MAF malfunction? I dont have a matrix for specs on MAF input for the L99/LS3, but a good reputable performance shop ought to.
Thanks for reading my 2 cents. I really am into GM's new tech, and I should be! I am a GM ASEP instructor for San Jacinto College, training a new generation of GM Technicians. Kinda makes me a little obsessive. Not to mention all my cells have little GM stamps on them.
Oh, one other thing, a little secret for those interested in displaying instantaneous fuel economy. (courtesy of Camaro5 member dstairs; Thanks Richard) While on the average fuel economy display, hold the CLR/RESET button until it beeps. It is then in instantaneous mode.
Keep tearing it up, my fellow Camaronites! Increase your carbon footprint, one burnout at a time!

[SSRider]

Originally Posted by jpgoins

Good morning Camaroheads!
A couple of things to consider concerning lack of power. First and foremost, there needs to be consideration for the powertrain warranty. 100,000 miles. Obviously, there are many technically knowledgable people on this site. And for those of you that have been involved with other GM vehicles over the last 4 to 5 years, you are woefully familiar to TORQUE MANAGEMENT. This is GM's built in protection program against excessive warranty claims concerning powertrain. A very good friend of mine has an 08 Silverado Vortec Max. This thing is just sad. An L76 6.0 should be able to rip the hides off from a standstill. Nope. Barely a chirp, even in tow/haul with TCS/VSC off. Rediculous. So, in for a reputable dyno tune. Spins through first and into second, with the 1/2 shift causing a scary tail wag. Downside: if he takes it in with that dyno tune, GM has built in a history burn that a GM tech can see that the update is not a match with the GM calibration. He was smart and bought a blank ECM. TCM is a different story, but with the torque management brought close to zero, he chose not to modify TCM programming. Besides, to swap out the TCM in a 6 speed, you would have to pull the valve body! (internal).
Anyhow, a proper tune should really wake up those L99/6As. Do yourself a favor though, buy a blank ECM.
Second, and I don't know if this is just a fluke, but when my dad's came in from Area 51, the MAF was unplugged. His had 37 miles on it. I wonder if there is a MAF malfunction? I dont have a matrix for specs on MAF input for the L99/LS3, but a good reputable performance shop ought to.
Thanks for reading my 2 cents. I really am into GM's new tech, and I should be! I am a GM ASEP instructor for San Jacinto College, training a new generation of GM Technicians. Kinda makes me a little obsessive. Not to mention all my cells have little GM stamps on them.
Oh, one other thing, a little secret for those interested in displaying instantaneous fuel economy. (courtesy of Camaro5 member dstairs; Thanks Richard) While on the average fuel economy display, hold the CLR/RESET button until it beeps. It is then in instantaneous mode.
Keep tearing it up, my fellow Camaronites! Increase your carbon footprint, one burnout at a time!

Thanks for the great info

I have a question. If I understand your post correctly you are saying that unlike the C5 LS1/FBody LS1 (PCM only) that the 2010 LS3's have both an ECM and TCM and that the TCM is programable? I was expecting the LS3 to have a PCM. All of the threads I have read indicate that the tranny and engine programming are done in one spot. So I assumed that tuning takes place in the PCM. Also in regard to the MAF, didn't that unplugged MAF throw a code? Why would you want the programing tables, just to verify that they are correct in the stock ECM programming? Changing those MAF tables can reak havoc on your tune unless you are adjusting for a different MAF Thanks for your indulgence. I want to learn as much as I am able about tuning the LS3. I am not a professional tuner but did spend maybe a thousand hours (over a period of 18 months) tunning my LS1 using DIY equipment such as a good scanner, Innovative LM-1 wide band sensor, LS1 Edit and a Passport G-Timer.

[jpgoins]

Thanks, SSRider, for the point--I guess my post is a little misleading. The L99 (automatic only) is the one with the TCM.
Strangely enough, the unplugged MAF did not throw a code. It was noticed during a quick inspection. Curiously enough, it did start/run (speed density backup, i guess). Yes, the LS3 wont have trans controls at all (except for that frigging CAGS), and it is a PCM. Anything with the new 6A has a separate TCM from the ECM. The question I have about the MAF is that the dealer was told some reasons why dad's car was stuck in QC for 78 days, and one of the reasons was a questionable MAF. I just put that out there as a question for others. You actually have much more experience with tuning than I do...I am on the factory side, and have next to no experience with LS1 Edit. I have read post after post concerning low power issues with the L99/6A combo and was offering another option. Sure would be nice to know where the issue info came from.

[SSRider]

Thanks for the clarification. That's a good point about the MAF. However it seems that if in fact the MAF were causing low power issues it would be more noticable at higher speeds where there would be a larger amount (grams) of air flowing through the sensor. If the MAF sensor was malfunctioning that could really screw the timing. God knows where, within the timing tables it would get direction I am thinking out loud here and trying to help with this low power situation on the L99. I think I should leave it to the professionals. thanks for the post though.

[jpgoins]

According to GM, the MAF signal is highest under high load (heavy acceleration) and not necessarily at high speed. End result is a lean condition. From that point, knock sensor input would retard timing due to predetonation. Short term fuel trim would also be increased, however by that time reduced power would be the result. In addition, in extremely lean situations, the PCM/ECM would reduce throttle angle to attempt to achieve proper A/F mixture. I miss the good old throttle cable. I'm with you though; I know just enough to be dangerous, but I am definitely no professional. I appreciate the discussion. Always good to freshen up my theory!

[SSRider]

Excellent thought process. Let's just hope that this does not involve faulty MAF sensors. There are so many variables and throw in the difference in the engine setup between the LS3 and the L99 . I am going to suggest that any L99 users buy or borrow a scanner and start logging data that covers many different parameters. This will help the professional tuners better dial in the tunes for the L99/A6. I can not emphasize this enough. Everyone will be guessing until we can see some hard data on what these L99's are doing under a specific load condition(s). I will wait and watch Thanks for the chat.

[camaro5]

Hmmm, motorheads.

I'm a GM ASEP graduate from around 20 years ago. That degree has helped me in many ways, even though I am no longer involved in the auto industry.


Torque management, huh? So maybe GM went a little too conservitive in their programming?

Problem is, all L99's aren't slow. Some definitely are.

Variable may be different flash versions on the ECM's - who knows.

Bottom line - if someone like Scott who has a pig L99 (0-60 7 sec plus), had a blank ECM burned with a performance tune from say Hennessy,

we'd know instantly whether it was mechanical or electronic. Blank ECM, so you can reinstall the stock unit for warranty work.



ps - MAF unplugged and no code? That's just wrong. Something's really broken there for an OBDII system to not recognize and alert about an open MAF circuit.


Speculate on, fellow motorheads.

[69 Hugger]

What would a blank ECM cost ? When you guys are talking a "tune"
is it software that you buy and upload it yourslf with a laptop or like the power programmers "Hypertech" uses with the tune in the programmer

[SSRider]

Originally Posted by 69 Hugger

What would a blank ECM cost ? When you guys are talking a "tune"
is it software that you buy and upload it yourslf with a laptop or like the power programmers "Hypertech" uses with the tune in the programmer

Typically when I say "Tune" that refers to the current programing that is in the PCM (Power Train Control Module) whether it is the stock tune or aftermarket.
There are typically two ways to program a PCM using the aftermarket. The first and best way, in my opinion, is too purchase tuning software and tune it yourself or hire a tuning shop too do it. If you tune it yourself then you will need more equipment to get the job done correctly. Preferably have a good tuning shop do it for you if you have not the desire nor time to put forth to do it yourself. I found the learning curve to be quite steep and you will have to spend about $1,000 or more on additional equipment. The other way would be to buy a "hypertech" product. I have never liked this option. You can get a much more specific tune for a little more money by visiting a reputable tuner in your area. I should also note here that some tuning shops can tune the PCM through the mail but I still prefer having it done in person to address the specific needs of your engine with respect to the mods, altitude you drive in etc...Also, I believe that some GM approved tech shops could tune using a Tech ll but I am not sure of this.

Whoops forgot to mention that the last time I priced a PCM it was $200.

[camaro5]

Yes, you can do it yourself, with an HP Tuner or Diablo tuner, but

John Hennessy posted their offer of I believe $395 to tune your ECM or PCM, and you can try it before they charge you. UPS to them, they UPS back.

Use the search tool for Hennessy tune or check vendor forum.

[LS3SSRS]

Originally Posted by SSRider

Typically when I say "Tune" that refers to the current programing that is in the PCM (Power Train Control Module) whether it is the stock tune or aftermarket.
There are typically two ways to program a PCM using the aftermarket. The first and best way, in my opinion, is too purchase tuning software and tune it yourself or hire a tuning shop too do it. If you tune it yourself then you will need more equipment to get the job done correctly. Preferably have a good tuning shop do it for you if you have not the desire nor time to put forth to do it yourself. I found the learning curve to be quite steep and you will have to spend about $1,000 or more on additional equipment. The other way would be to buy a "hypertech" product. I have never liked this option. You can get a much more specific tune for a little more money by visiting a reputable tuner in your area. I should also note here that some tuning shops can tune the PCM through the mail but I still prefer having it done in person to address the specific needs of your engine with respect to the mods, altitude you drive in etc...Also, I believe that some GM approved tech shops could tune using a Tech ll but I am not sure of this.

Whoops forgot to mention that the last time I priced a PCM it was $200.

im fairly sure a tech ll will do the crank relearn for swapping PCMs. i dont know if they can tune as well?

[SSRider]

Originally Posted by SSRider

Typically when I say "Tune" that refers to the current programing that is in the PCM (Power Train Control Module) whether it is the stock tune or aftermarket.
There are typically two ways to program a PCM using the aftermarket. The first and best way, in my opinion, is too purchase tuning software and tune it yourself or hire a tuning shop too do it. If you tune it yourself then you will need more equipment to get the job done correctly. Preferably have a good tuning shop do it for you if you have not the desire nor time to put forth to do it yourself. I found the learning curve to be quite steep and you will have to spend about $1,000 or more on additional equipment. The other way would be to buy a "hypertech" product. I have never liked this option. You can get a much more specific tune for a little more money by visiting a reputable tuner in your area. I should also note here that some tuning shops can tune the PCM through the mail but I still prefer having it done in person to address the specific needs of your engine with respect to the mods, altitude you drive in etc...Also, I believe that some GM approved tech shops could tune using a Tech ll but I am not sure of this.

Whoops forgot to mention that the last time I priced a PCM it was $200.

I should offer some further clarification on the word "tune". Tune relates to the programming of specific engine and/or tranny parameters within the PCM. The most often adjusted parameters are the A/F (air/fuel) and the timing. There are specific tables that a tuning program such as HPtuners or LS1Edit contain that are used as a look up for what the engine needs or is requesting based on other parameters such as the throttle position indicator. Mostly though when you hear somone talking about a tune it usually is as simple the the AF ratio, timing and some tranny adjustments to the TQ (torque management) tables. Does this help?
Also I would like to add that I do not consider a "hypertech" type tune to be a DIY. The reason is that the actual tuning parameters were adjusted by a vendor and saved to a device 'Hypetech" then you simply upload it to your PCM. A DIY tune is one that you create and upload from software such as Hptuners. I have not looked a hypertech in a while so I do suppose they may have the capability to adjust some parameters such as timing, however I still think they are a waste of money. If you don't get the A/F correct your missing the boat on a correct tune. And I KNOW a hypertech can not get the A/F correct because the A/F is measured at WOT using a wide-Band sensor. Find a good tuning shop in your area, if possible, and talk to them.You will learn so much more by seeing it done.

[shroomjohn]

Dont flame me but I am a novice to all this. How easy is it to pull the PCM if I wanted to ship it off where's it at?

[SSRider]

Originally Posted by shroomjohn

Dont flame me but I am a novice to all this. How easy is it to pull the PCM if I wanted to ship it off where's it at?

This forum is about sharing information and helping eachother get the most out of our Camaro ownership/driving experience. I would never flame anyone nor would I expect anyone else too. So please feel comfortable to ask anything. we all have many unanswered questions.

Now to answer your question: I DON'T KNOW Seriously, in regard to the Camaro I do not know where GM has located it. I can tell you that to pull it from the Vette is fairly simple but that doesn't help you it only saves me from looking completely ignorant. I would ask a tuning shop that has worked on the 2010 Camaro. Sorry I can help with that one.