Old Muscle car 1/4mi times are inaccurate.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by clg_98ta

I wouldn't call those numbers "inaccurate". The tires are part of the car, as delivered by the manufacturer, and those numbers reflect the performance of the cars as delivered.

The cars were often "capable" of better numbers with minor mods like tires (but so are today's cars).

and honestly If anything it was the other way around. Many times in the real world they won't run what the mag's where says.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by nhra stocker

Tires played a HUGE roll in it.

May 2007 Camaro performers magazine has a great article on the 69 ZL-1. They called it HELLBOY. Basically with some tinkering to the valve lash , carb , headers and some 8.5 M&Hs they ran 11.64 at 122 in the original 1970 Drag test. Also at the end of the article was mentioned at the proving grounds in Milford MI , 1 of only 2 ZL-1 vettes was out fitted with only a tire mod. Being a 10.50 x 15 M&H racemaster and it went 10.70s ALL DAY LONG!!! They considered that to be the key to the kingdom!

Yes and that ZL-1 ran 13.1 stock....in High Performance Cars I believe. The ZL-1 was very underrated from the factory, you can tell by the power measures at such low RPM. The ZL-1 usually came out to 520-540 gross and 370-400 net horsepower. Considering this car weighed something like 3,200 pounds as opposed to 3,900 for a 5th generation with similar power its no wonder that car ran such a low time with drag slicks. Even still the ZL1 and L88 were rare factory engines that were tuned out with racing. The Boss 429 and Hemi fall into the same category as racing engines. Most regular engines weren't underrated at all.....

[Hoss]

My brother's buddy had a 1967 GTX 426 Hemi/auto new, he couldn't get traction at the drags, he bought cheater slicks that had small traction veins in the 2 rear tires to make him legal on the street. He went from the high 12's to the mid 11's. Putting full slicks and 4.11 rear gears and went to the high 10's.

His hemi left the memory of the fastest street car I ever road in and "Old Muscle cars 1/4mi times are inaccurate." His Hemi was stock other than the 4.11 gears and slicks.

[HDDAN]

Originally Posted by Fearer2010SS

Ummm you do know that before 1972 these cars were rated SAE gross? So take an engine like an LS5 making 365hp/465lb-ft in Chevelle SS application only made 270hp/390lb-ft in 1972. The only difference is that SAE gross ratings measure power without any accessories attached to the engine, while SAE net measures them with on. SAE net is how engine power is measured to today. The LS3 or L99 would smoke any classic musclecar power wise if your convert the figures back to SAE gross.

As for musclecars having crappy tires your right about that. But what your forgetting is that automakers would often send tricked out ringer cars to these auto magazine tests rather than the "real" stock version. Case and point would be the 421 64 GTO........

You are right about the 'gross" and "net" horsepowers ratings.. You can't go by someone's time slips from that period either. The NHRA rule book allowed Cheater slicks(slicks with 2 grooves around them), headers with open dumpers and lots of other stuff in the "stock" classes. It was not until 1965 that they started having another stock class called "pure" stock that did not allow these things. There was also the Modified Production class that was no holds barred except the removal of body parts and setting back the engine in the frame. These cars had to have license plates to show that they were "street" cars.

[DS1937]

Originally Posted by Fearer2010SS

Ummm you do know that before 1972 these cars were rated SAE gross? So take an engine like an LS5 making 365hp/465lb-ft in Chevelle SS application only made 270hp/390lb-ft in 1972. The only difference is that SAE gross ratings measure power without any accessories attached to the engine, while SAE net measures them with on. SAE net is how engine power is measured to today. The LS3 or L99 would smoke any classic musclecar power wise if your convert the figures back to SAE gross.

As for musclecars having crappy tires your right about that. But what your forgetting is that automakers would often send tricked out ringer cars to these auto magazine tests rather than the "real" stock version. Case and point would be the 421 64 GTO........

Did you 1964 GTO with a 421 was a stock car? If you want to include Royal Pontiac' "Royal Bobcat" as one then yes. No such thing from Pontiac.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by DS1937

Did you 1964 GTO with a 421 was a stock car? If you want to include Royal Pontiac' "Royal Bobcat" as one then yes. No such thing from Pontiac.

Exactly, the 389 and 421 look exactly the same at first glance. Car and Driver did a test of the 64 GTO claiming it was just a mild Bobcat tune of the 389 from Royal Pontiac that ran the quarter in 12.8. Jim Wangers admitted several times in various interviews that the stock 389 was pulled for a tricked out Bobcat 421. Most stock 64 GTOs run the quarter in the high 14s. This was done to make the GTO appear faster in publication than it actually was.

[Solocus]

Originally Posted by Fearer2010SS

Yes and that ZL-1 ran 13.1 stock....in High Performance Cars I believe. The ZL-1 was very underrated from the factory, you can tell by the power measures at such low RPM. The ZL-1 usually came out to 520-540 gross and 370-400 net horsepower. Considering this car weighed something like 3,200 pounds as opposed to 3,900 for a 5th generation with similar power its no wonder that car ran such a low time with drag slicks.

I always thought the 13.1 time for the ZL-1 was considered the fastest of all factory stock (Production) cars (tires included) of the muscle car era. Are you sure that 13.1 time was with slicks? Given the weight to HP ratio I would think this car with slicks would run mid 12s or so, possibly even better.

[sodapop]

My first new car was a 64 GTO. 389-single four barrel carb-325HP. 14.2@94MPH. Yes I'm old, but only in numbers.

[ViperTomcat]

About two years ago a fellow here in Southern Oregon took his 1970 440 Challenger R/T with drag radials to our local stip (otherwise it's stock equal parts). On modern tires he ran 13.1 @ 108 MPH.

So..go figure.

[DS1937]

Originally Posted by sodapop

My first new car was a 64 GTO. 389-single four barrel carb-325HP. 14.2@94MPH. Yes I'm old, but only in numbers.

My first was a tri-power 389 with a close ratio muncie 4 speed & 4.11:1 rear. The best it ran stock was a 13.8 @ 101. I put a 396 cid 375 HP big block Chevy in it. It's the one in my picture, it ran 11:80 @ 121mph. If I had some money to spend on tires, the e.t. would have been a little better.
Sure wish I still had that thing.

[tadams72]

I own a muscle car (65 Olds 442). I grew up in a family of 1/4 mile drag racers. I spent more weekends at the track than not. I am a huge fan of the muscle car era and my list of cars I would love to have from back then is extensive.

That being said, those cars cannot hang with todays cars. No if's, and's, or but's. Do you think tire technology is the only thing that has advanced over the years? Yes the old big blocks make tire shredding torque but when you take the total car (aero, drive train inefficiencies, etc), there is no comparison. Look at the old numbers, one thing right off the bat I notice is the MPH. Our new cars are registering trap speeds above 110. Most of the old muscle cars were puking their guts out crossing the line in the 100 to 105 mark.

No folks, this is the new muscle car era. Love the old ones, embrace the new ones. It's still a lifestyle and we are still a brotherhood/sisterhood. Oh, and for the record, we all knew that one guy with that one car that used to do the unbelievable. One my favorite old stories was the guy that would put the $100 bill on the dash and if you could grab it durnig the launch it was yours! Put it up there, will be the eaisest $100 I've ever made.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by Solocus

I always thought the 13.1 time for the ZL-1 was considered the fastest of all factory stock (Production) cars (tires included) of the muscle car era. Are you sure that 13.1 time was with slicks? Given the weight to HP ratio I would think this car with slicks would run mid 12s or so, possibly even better.

No that was with stock tires, with slicks and a couple mods it went into the mid 11s. There are a lot of well documented sources on quarter mile times, check out the post I was replying to. The poster quoted one source that had the ZL1 at 11.64. Slicks alone should put the ZL1 in the low to mid 12s.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Ironheadspearo

My father had a brand new 67 GTO back in the day, his came stock with hooker headers and hurst shifter. he added wrinkle wall slicks and was in the 11 seconds with basically a semi stock car.

Hooker Headers = not stock, was a bolt-on.

11 second stock GTO? Don't think so.

13-14 and yes even 15 seconds was the norm for most old muscle cars. Many could be coaxed into the 12s with bolt-ons and slicks. 11s were rare for street driven cars. Right now is the golden age of muscle cars.

[myblackcamaros]

Originally Posted by tadams72

I own a muscle car (65 Olds 442). I grew up in a family of 1/4 mile drag racers. I spent more weekends at the track than not. I am a huge fan of the muscle car era and my list of cars I would love to have from back then is extensive.

That being said, those cars cannot hang with todays cars. No if's, and's, or but's. Do you think tire technology is the only thing that has advanced over the years? Yes the old big blocks make tire shredding torque but when you take the total car (aero, drive train inefficiencies, etc), there is no comparison. Look at the old numbers, one thing right off the bat I notice is the MPH. Our new cars are registering trap speeds above 110. Most of the old muscle cars were puking their guts out crossing the line in the 100 to 105 mark.

No folks, this is the new muscle car era. Love the old ones, embrace the new ones. It's still a lifestyle and we are still a brotherhood/sisterhood. Oh, and for the record, we all knew that one guy with that one car that used to do the unbelievable. One my favorite old stories was the guy that would put the $100 bill on the dash and if you could grab it durnig the launch it was yours! Put it up there, will be the eaisest $100 I've ever made.

Oh if I had a dollar for everytime I heard that $100 crap! Those stories don't work when you tell them to somebody who's raced in the mid to low 7's in the quarter! How do you think we reach for the parachute among other functions.