[ChefBorOzzy]

This is entertaining. Ford guys have the most arguments.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by newmoon

13 1LEs for sale on the For Sale forum 1st page alone. No problem there right? I guess only 1LE buyers have issues which force them to rather quickly sell at a much higher rate than other Camaro trim levels.

If you're so interested in this maybe you should survey the sellers and find out why they are selling them.

I bet very few will tell you because the car sucks for it's intended purpose or is not reliable enough.

1LEs and ZL1s are basically toys. People buy and sell their toys and those who thought the cars might make a "fun commuter car" often move on quickly. Same with many other cars...

Arguing this point isn't doing a whole lot for your credibility btw...

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I would argue that the LL is much more representative of the performance of the vehicle, as multiple drivers get the opportunity to try the vehicle over multiple days and conditions, the best time stands.

But hey we will rule out any LL results from the past and future unless the Camaro comes out on top

The conclusion from the PP2 Lighting Lap article is illuminating.

it's clear that the Performance Pack Level 2 is Ford's way of making sure the Camaro 1LE doesn't run off with the roses while the Mustang is still kicking up dirt on the track. To that end, it succeeds and frankly, in terms of track prowess, is far more accomplished than we could have imagined. Still, it trails the Camaro SS 1LE in terms of almost-supernatural reserves of dynamic capability.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

TTRS is also a transverse mounted engine with a FWD bias based AWD system.



LL isn't a good comparison - different year, different drivers, condition, etc. No I won't claim any SLE lap time over a PP2 until they meet face to face. I assume them to be very close in best overall lap time, with the PP2 then off to the pits for a cool down, while the SLE continues to lap. If that's a win in anyway, I would like to hear why newmoon.

Not sure the purpose of the comment on the TTRS unless you are commenting on the understeer. I do know that and I was able to dial out the understeer with MSS springs and a sway bar swap.

Regarding the suspension and body control though, it was spot on right from the factory.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Not vs the GM Alpha but the Ford GT PP2 is proof that those claims are true wrt the Mustang. It's an awkward and pathetic attempt to keep up with the SS 1LE and they would have been better off not trying to make the Mustang into something it's clearly not suited for.

I can't really comment on that because I haven't driven a GT350 or PP2 much further than a short test drive, so it is hard to get a feel for a chassis with only a short test drive, but all the magazines seem to agree that it still is sub-par.

I am not sure it is worse than the M3 though, the M3 failed pretty badly at chassis dynamics and suspension/body control.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I know the 1LE is great we can tell by the overwhelming number of them for sale in this forum shortly after initial purchase. Yes the PP2 should have come with coolers no arguement from me.

Sales do not directly correlate to performance and vice versa. The Mustang has historically outsold the Camaro. Even back in the 90s when the Mustang GT was a 225 HP 15 sec car it outsold the 275 HP Camaro Z28 that ran circles around it. The reason why is the same as it's always been. Because the Mustang is a cheaper car that is often bought in a stripped down base model setup. With the S550, the GTs sold like crazy because Ford was belting them out for much cheaper than the SS was being sold for. People who can't afford a Camaro or a Challenger, which is a LOT of people, end up buying base model GTs.

[Syphon23]

All girls love mustangs...They sell well do to fleet sales and 45 year old women buying 6v convertibles.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Did you see this review of the PP2?

Thanks for sharing hotlap. No other muscle car can match the superb handling experience of the great alpha chassis Camaro. It's in another league already VS the best from BMW Ms and some Porsche's for much less $.

[Deki]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sales do not directly correlate to performance and vice versa. The Mustang has historically outsold the Camaro. Even back in the 90s when the Mustang GT was a 225 HP 15 sec car it outsold the 275 HP Camaro Z28 that ran circles around it. The reason why is the same as it's always been. Because the Mustang is a cheaper car that is often bought in a stripped down base model setup. With the S550, the GTs sold like crazy because Ford was belting them out for much cheaper than the SS was being sold for. People who can't afford a Camaro or a Challenger, which is a LOT of people, end up buying base model GTs.

Lol you really think that the Camaro was so much more expensive than the Mustang and the Challenger that people couldn't afford it, so they bought the others? Let's calm down and come back to earth.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Deki

Lol you really think that the Camaro was so much more expensive than the Mustang and the Challenger that people couldn't afford it, so they bought the others? Let's calm down and come back to earth.

For start of Mustang 6th Gen price was definitely an issue. Not from an affordability perspective, but more from a deal-making perspective. Especially at a V8 perspective. The lowest price Mustang V8 was thousands of dollars below the price of the lowest price Camaro V8. This is primarily due to the way GM chose to option the SS trim.

Add to that the fact that GM was and continues to be very stingy with discounts on Camaro and you have multiple instances where people drove both cars but bought the Mustang because the dealers wouldn’t budge on the Camaro prices. Check the “New Member” posts at Mustang 6 and you’ll see more than a few posts from new Mustang owners stating exactly that.

It has changed a bit with 2018-19. PP1 and PP2 trims of GT bring the prices really close to and in some cases above the prices of 1SS and 2SS Camaros. But Base GT ($35,355) is still significantly lower priced than a 1SS ($37,495) and Chevrolet still does not offer money back, so dealers are only dealing with their own $$. GM has even talked about offering a lower content V8 model but have yet to do that.

Edit: Quick check shows GM is offering $1,500 cash back on ‘19 Coupes and $500 on Verts. Ford is offering $1,500 across the board on all Mustangs and low payment low mileage leases

So is affordability an issue? Not really. Is pricing an issue? It seems to be.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Bosse'sBoss

Thanks for sharing hotlap. No other muscle car can match the superb handling experience of the great alpha chassis Camaro. It's in another league already VS the best from BMW Ms and some Porsche's for much less $.

The SS, ZL1 and the four 1LEs are extremely balanced and well integrated performance packages on a world class chassis. The engineers did an amazing job. No short cuts. No compromises

IMO - The SS 1LE is the star of the Alpha Camaro because it offers so much performance at such a low price. As you said ...in another league

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sales do not directly correlate to performance and vice versa. The Mustang has historically outsold the Camaro. Even back in the 90s when the Mustang GT was a 225 HP 15 sec car it outsold the 275 HP Camaro Z28 that ran circles around it. The reason why is the same as it's always been. Because the Mustang is a cheaper car that is often bought in a stripped down base model setup. With the S550, the GTs sold like crazy because Ford was belting them out for much cheaper than the SS was being sold for. People who can't afford a Camaro or a Challenger, which is a LOT of people, end up buying base model GTs.

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Blaq, I am not arguing initial sales here, I am stating that there is a disproportionately high number of SS 1LEs that seem to shortly go up for sale after the initial purchase.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Deki

Lol you really think that the Camaro was so much more expensive than the Mustang and the Challenger that people couldn't afford it, so they bought the others? Let's calm down and come back to earth.

Martin answered you...and he is 100% correct. Many many times there were people who claimed they went to a Chevy dealership and could not get them to budge on the price. They then went to a Ford dealership and got a GT for much less than advertised. A few of them that wandered over here even said the same thing. And the majority of Mustang sales were EB because Ford was pushing dealerships to sell them. Ford was giving dealerships incentives and bonuses to get as many EB Stangs out as possible. So yes, price is the main issue. Price was the main thing in the 90s as well.

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Blaq, I am not arguing initial sales here, I am stating that there is a disproportionately high number of SS 1LEs that seem to shortly go up for sale after the initial purchase.

Your statement was "I know the 1LE is great we can tell by the overwhelming number of them for sale in this forum shortly after initial purchase." which was a sarcastic way of saying that the SLE can't be all that great if it isn't selling as well as the Mustang. That is why I said that sales and a vehicle's performance are not always directly in proportion to each other.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Blaq, I am not arguing initial sales here, I am stating that there is a disproportionately high number of SS 1LEs that seem to shortly go up for sale after the initial purchase.

Let's compare used 1LEs for sale with used GT350's for sale. You are fighting a losing battle dude, in reality finding a clean 1LE for sale at the right price is A LOT harder than finding a used GT350. To add insult to injury, people arent selling their 1LE's because they suck as DD's or will soon explode, like the GT350's.