[Cldgin2]

Originally Posted by Corner carver

Sickness

Thanks

[Cldgin2]

Originally Posted by LuvMI

The Hotness!

You make me blush!

[camaro5]

Originally Posted by VCSRT

The gen 6 has had 2 good months since its debut and now its suddenly the better car of the 3? lol...

Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis

Man why don't you read some reviews instead of being a troll and then you'll find that universally they're considered the better car of the 3. go back in your cave man

cccccccccccccccc ccccccccccccccccccccc


VCSRT
Drives: Jeep - lol

[Bluecyclone]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

I usually see 1-3 a day here. Not one of these bastards wave back. Could be the tinted windows.

I enjoy hot rods of all makes & years, yet rarely get waved at and I do try an flip my lights or wiggle my pony at hot rods passing by. Nobody cares about each other like they use to because of work which causes stress or other life matters. It's great to see lot's of sales but these guys & gals got to drive them pony cars. I see very few camaro's a few more challengers and many mustangs as I dd my 16 GT. Come on out an have fun in the twisty's with us!
Might even try fishing for redfish with me.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by VCSRT

The gen 6 has had 2 good months since its debut and now its suddenly the better car of the 3? lol...

What is interesting, is that we've been able to see the fleet percentage and average transaction price. More people (retail) chose Camaro. The Camaro's higher transaction price is a reflection of the low profit associated with that 1/3 fleet sales Ford and Dodge are participating in.

GM bankrupted itself chasing volume, with shity rental car quality vehicles, in order to maintain its market position. They have now withdrawn from unprofitable export markets, reduced fleet sales and are building better quality cars with higher ATP. It seems to be paying off.

Cars sales in general are poor right now and ATS/CTS/Camaro haven't sold in high volume. GM raised the price of all three significantly in an apparent attempt to move market perception higher. Still work to be done there but no one can argue that from a performance perspective, all three are world class so more attention must be paid to the details. I read Alpha2 is already underway with the Cadillacs arriving 19 or 20 so gen7 is certain IMO.

[Godfatha]

I don't see how anyone can say that the 6th gen hasn't been a success. Mustangs will always sell better because they're cheaper.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by IOMike

Ford and FCA love fleet sales. Not a good long term solution.

Well they don't *love* them but they depend on them heavily out of necessity. Investors certainly don't love them. FMC and FCA have historically sold more to fleet than GM but beginning in 2016, Barra et al made the concerted effort to push fleet sales down (20% max) - especially low margin rental fleet (less than 10% total sales). While total sales have struggled to show much improvement, the retail strides GM is making in a delicate auto market is significant.

Originally Posted by BluinSC

^ I think the main takeaway is GM sold 40 less cars but made almost 3500 more dollars on each car sold than the Mustang did. Which means the Gen 6 is probably more profitable (since a lot of the underpinnings come from the CTS and ATS). Sortra blows the whole notion away the GM is losing its ass on the Gen6 that was on here a few months ago imo.

Few people truly know what margin GM makes on the Alpha cars. The whole program could still be losing money for all we know. I don't think that's the case, but sedan and coupe sales industry wide have suffered in the last 24 months. The market's just not there anymore. If only they would build a Cayenne fighter on Alpha...

Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis

Plus the fact that GM is making more money per car I think that the Camaro sitting pretty and I think that GM is more than happy with the healthy sales it's having.

Making more revenue per car yes. Profit per car is anyone's guess.

Originally Posted by camaro5

6% fleet for Camaro - almost NONE!

It will likely continue to rise as the year progresses. I suspect it will reach 10% or so by year end. For historical perspective, 5th gen Camaro was about 15% fleet sales most years. Mustang and Challenger were 25% and 20% respectively although both models pushed closer to 30% in 2016.

Originally Posted by camaro5

5th gen'rs, we love ya, but we're not only making loads more money on the 6th gen, it's a world-class sports car rated better than C7 Corvette.

See above - more revenue yes but remember FMC are masterful at building cars for less. I'm not implying low quality parts or corner cutting but they are far more stingy on cost control than GM historically. Spend less on R&D, salary/benefits, consolidate platforms, etc. Different way of doing business.

Originally Posted by Battlezone580

Its clear most people don't follow the auto industry trends and understand what really going on. Car sales are at all time low right now, this is industry wide and has been happening for over the last 5 months.

Tumultuous times indeed. The whole market is fragile right now and there is a seismic shift toward crossovers that doesn't appear to be slowing anytime soon.

Originally Posted by hotlap

What is interesting, is that we've been able to see the fleet percentage and average transaction price. More people (retail) chose Camaro. The Camaro's higher transaction price is a reflection of the low profit associated with that 1/3 fleet sales Ford and Dodge are participating in.

GM bankrupted itself chasing volume, with shity rental car quality vehicles, in order to maintain its market position. They have now withdrawn from unprofitable export markets, reduced fleet sales and are building better quality cars with higher ATP. It seems to be paying off.

As an investor and car enthusiast, I'm impressed at what Barra et al have accomplished. Weathering the recall storm, cutting low margin fleet sales, growing retail share, growing ATP's and improving quality across the board. At the same time, continuing to cater to enthusiasts with Corvette, Camaro and V cars (and until recently SS sedans).

Originally Posted by Godfatha

I don't see how anyone can say that the 6th gen hasn't been a success. Mustangs will always sell better because they're cheaper.

Strong relationship between price and volume in every segment. What enthusiasts consider "success" likely means performance in segment and yes, Camaro is absurd performance for the money. But GM and investors measure success by profits (by and large) and we honestly don't know how successful Alpha cars are for GM from that perspective.

[khell86]

It's interesting how the narrative has changed here. Now fleet sales are a big deal. Where was this concern in the past? Oh you guys...

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by khell86

It's interesting how the narrative has changed here. Now fleet sales are a big deal. Where was this concern in the past? Oh you guys...

Its an enthusiast forum for Christ's sake. If we are the sales winner = Hurray!! If we are down on overall sales but retail sales are better = Hurray! If we are way way down on sales, but have the faster/better car = Hurray!!

Don't act like any other forum wouldn't follow the same trend. You know it.



Now for my .02.

Sales are looking fine to me. If that data on retail sales is accurate, I think that speaks volumes...its a big deal and worth pointing out. Its not something these threads focused on in the past b/c it wasn't brought up...or at least, wasn't paid attention to. Now it is.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

If you want GM to continue to consider Camaro a viable business case, sales numbers would matter to you.

The central theme of GM's recovery since bankruptcy has been profit trumps market share and sales. Higher contented, higher priced Gen 6 selling at lower numbers than Gen 5 is still a very positive business plan result if the higher content rings the cash register.

I can guarantee you that folks at the RenCen are smiling.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by khell86

It's interesting how the narrative has changed here. Now fleet sales are a big deal. Where was this concern in the past? Oh you guys...

Very likely different people with different perspectives...and a win = Hurray.

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

Sales are looking fine to me. If that data on retail sales is accurate, I think that speaks volumes...its a big deal and worth pointing out. Its not something these threads focused on in the past b/c it wasn't brought up...or at least, wasn't paid attention to. Now it is.

Add that fleet vs retail is now a GM corporate strategy, not just a Camaro or Alpha thing. Seeing the percentages and the affect on ATP is very interesting.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Well they don't *love* them but they depend on them heavily out of necessity. Investors certainly don't love them. FMC and FCA have historically sold more to fleet than GM but beginning in 2016, Barra et al made the concerted effort to push fleet sales down (20% max) - especially low margin rental fleet (less than 10% total sales). While total sales have struggled to show much improvement, the retail strides GM is making in a delicate auto market is significant.

Agreed, they don't love them but sometimes you need those small margin things to move inventory. Excess inventory = bad

Few people truly know what margin GM makes on the Alpha cars. The whole program could still be losing money for all we know. I don't think that's the case, but sedan and coupe sales industry wide have suffered in the last 24 months. The market's just not there anymore. If only they would build a Cayenne fighter on Alpha...

I think this is important to note. While the ATP is high that doesn't necessarily mean that the profit margin is high as well. As MEDISIN pointed out, coupe/sedan sales are very low.


Making more revenue per car yes. Profit per car is anyone's guess.

This ^

It will likely continue to rise as the year progresses. I suspect it will reach 10% or so by year end. For historical perspective, 5th gen Camaro was about 15% fleet sales most years. Mustang and Challenger were 25% and 20% respectively although both models pushed closer to 30% in 2016.



See above - more revenue yes but remember FMC are masterful at building cars for less. I'm not implying low quality parts or corner cutting but they are far more stingy on cost control than GM historically. Spend less on R&D, salary/benefits, consolidate platforms, etc. Different way of doing business.



Tumultuous times indeed. The whole market is fragile right now and there is a seismic shift toward crossovers that doesn't appear to be slowing anytime soon.

Yep. People would rather drive a CUV or small SUV than a car. Most people will say to themselves well I can spend 25K on a sedan or 25-30K on a cross over and they choose the crossover. I wonder if they feel like they are getting more vehicle for the money?

As an investor and car enthusiast, I'm impressed at what Barra et al have accomplished. Weathering the recall storm, cutting low margin fleet sales, growing retail share, growing ATP's and improving quality across the board. At the same time, continuing to cater to enthusiasts with Corvette, Camaro and V cars (and until recently SS sedans).

I don't think anyone can deny what Barra has done is impressive. Her and her team have done a masterful job so far. It is extremely impressive.

Strong relationship between price and volume in every segment. What enthusiasts consider "success" likely means performance in segment and yes, Camaro is absurd performance for the money. But GM and investors measure success by profits (by and large) and we honestly don't know how successful Alpha cars are for GM from that perspective.

Responses in red, I don't think theres anything I said to argue about MEDISIN

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by khell86

It's interesting how the narrative has changed here. Now fleet sales are a big deal. Where was this concern in the past? Oh you guys...

The narrative hasn't really changed. The issue of retail sales has been an important conversation in the industry for a long time. Heightened over the last several years with GM's intent to REDUCE fleet sales at the same time that FCA has had to rely heavily on fleet sales to underpin and aging product line. It is just becoming more of an issue, to the point that it is as evident in an enthusiast newsgroup as it is in financial circles.

[LuvMI]

Originally Posted by qnhouston

We just got this one in.