[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

If I correctly understand, Epsilon II and E2XX are one and the same?
This states that the Epsilon II precedes the E2XX: https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-platforms/e2xx/

They are NOT the same. Epsilon started as a GM Europe (Opel / Vauxhall) platform. Epsilon II was the US adaptation of that platform that produced the Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac G6, and Saturn (I forget the nameplate). The program codes for those initial Epsilon products followed a different “decoder ring” and I think the brain cell that stored that information died at a party long long ago. The programs on the upgrade to that platform were the first to get the E1XX designations.

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

[B] When you say the XTS program code was P1LL, is that different than the platform?

The easiest way I can put this is in the framework of a sports league:

A platform is like a Conference. So let’s call Epsilon AFC.
Sometimes there are variations on a platform, like Divisions in a Conference like AFC East, AFC South, AFC West, and AFC North. So, let’s call E1 AFC East and let’s call P1 AFC South.

A program is like a franchise, so within the AFC East (E1) you have the Buffalo Bills (E1SC - Malibu), New England Patriots (Regal -E1SB), et cetera. And in AFC South you have the Houston Texans (Cadillac XTS - P1LL), Indy Colts (Lacrosse - E1LB), Jax Jaguars (Impala - E1LC or P1LC), et cetera.

The platform refresh would then be E2 with the same body style and brand descriptors. So current Malibu is E2SC, Regal was E2SB, et cetera.

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

[B] Since the Impala, Lacrosse and XTS were built on the long wheelbase variation of the Epsilon platform, doesn't it mean they were on the P2XX platform and not the E2XX platform?
This only lists the 2017-18 Impala and not prior years: https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-platforms/p2xx/

Product Planning, where I spent the last 20 years of my career at GM, owns the development of and the assignment of program codes. Why XTS is P1LL and Lacrosse is E1LB, built in the same plant on the same platform was probably an arbitrary choice and/or an attempt to make Cadillac feel special (P = Premium?). I can only guess.

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

[B] But then there's this platform information: https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chev...vrolet-impala/

It's all over the place!

@Martinjlm I'll wait for your response, because it's driving me insane.

All I can say is GMA does their best to consolidate a lot of information into something meaningful and useful for non-insiders. There is a lot in the link that is supposition. For example, I’ve never heard anyone inside GM refer to a “Super Epsilon”.

Impala is also a bit more complicated in that when the last version of Impala was rolled out in 2014, the previous version remained in market as “Impala Limited” and was sold primarily to rental car fleets. That version of Impala was always a popular car in rental car fleets, so shifting the nameplate to Impala Limited allowed GM to continue to draw revenue from selling to rental car fleets while also keeping the new Impala out of the rental car fleets (high volume rental reduces residual rates that are used to calculate lease terms). Same thing was done with Malibu a couple times with overlapping product cycles. Remember Malibu Classic?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

FWIW I have a 2017 Impala and as I recall at the time looking into the details, it is an Epsilon II platform, which was previously mainly used by Cadillac, but not for several years. I figured if it was good enough for Caddies, I'll take it for my Impala.

I never saw any of those other platform names mentioned at all.

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

I would say it was the opposite way.....

Epsilon started its life as a mainstream platform for the Malibu, G6, Aura, etc. Epsilon II may have spawned a LWB version to replace the vehicles on the W-Body( Impala, LaCrosse) and G-Body( DTS), but I wouldn't classify Epsilon as a premium platform brought down to use for Chevy.

Now Alpha platform is one I would classify as that. Alpha platform was meant for Cadillac's use from the beginning. It's an expensive platform. The Camaro was then put on it as a way to spread the costs and why Camaro had a price disadvantage over Mustang and Challenger due to the pricey nature of the Alpha platform.

Epsilon II is basically Global Epsilon which is the original European Epsilon platform tweaked to meet US needs. Epsilon 2 is the later upgrade to Global Epsilon / Epsilon II.

By the time Epsilon came along, there was already a focused move to shift Cadillac cars to RWD. The closest thing to Epsilon in the Cadillac portfolio (other than XTS) was SRX. It was built on what was called TE platform (Theta-Epsilon). Theta is the original Equinox / Pontiac Torrent platform. Before Pontiac was dropped and Equinox switched to Global Delta platform with GMC Terrain replacing Torrent.

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

They are NOT the same. Epsilon started as a GM Europe (Opel / Vauxhall) platform. Epsilon II was the US adaptation of that platform that produced the Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac G6, and Saturn (I forget the nameplate). The program codes for those initial Epsilon products followed a different “decoder ring” and I think the brain cell that stored that information died at a party long long ago. The programs on the upgrade to that platform were the first to get the E1XX designations.

The easiest way I can put this is in the framework of a sports league:

A platform is like a Conference. So let’s call Epsilon AFC.
Sometimes there are variations on a platform, like Divisions in a Conference like AFC East, AFC South, AFC West, and AFC North. So, let’s call E1 AFC East and let’s call P1 AFC South.

A program is like a franchise, so within the AFC East (E1) you have the Buffalo Bills (E1SC - Malibu), New England Patriots (Regal -E1SB), et cetera. And in AFC South you have the Houston Texans (Cadillac XTS - P1LL), Indy Colts (Lacrosse - E1LB), Jax Jaguars (Impala - E1LC or P1LC), et cetera.

The platform refresh would then be E2 with the same body style and brand descriptors. So current Malibu is E2SC, Regal was E2SB, et cetera.

Product Planning, where I spent the last 20 years of my career at GM, owns the development of and the assignment of program codes. Why XTS is P1LL and Lacrosse is E1LB, built in the same plant on the same platform was probably an arbitrary choice and/or an attempt to make Cadillac feel special (P = Premium?). I can only guess.

All I can say is GMA does their best to consolidate a lot of information into something meaningful and useful for non-insiders. There is a lot in the link that is supposition. For example, I’ve never heard anyone inside GM refer to a “Super Epsilon”.

Impala is also a bit more complicated in that when the last version of Impala was rolled out in 2014, the previous version remained in market as “Impala Limited” and was sold primarily to rental car fleets. That version of Impala was always a popular car in rental car fleets, so shifting the nameplate to Impala Limited allowed GM to continue to draw revenue from selling to rental car fleets while also keeping the new Impala out of the rental car fleets (high volume rental reduces residual rates that are used to calculate lease terms). Same thing was done with Malibu a couple times with overlapping product cycles. Remember Malibu Classic?

It's a lot of information and quite helpful. Thank you.

[FenwickHockey65]

A while back I was told the P1XX cars were basically E2XX cars with a trunk extension.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

They are NOT the same. Epsilon started as a GM Europe (Opel / Vauxhall) platform. Epsilon II was the US adaptation of that platform that produced the Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac G6, and Saturn (I forget the nameplate). The program codes for those initial Epsilon products followed a different “decoder ring” and I think the brain cell that stored that information died at a party long long ago. The programs on the upgrade to that platform were the first to get the E1XX designations.


The easiest way I can put this is in the framework of a sports league:

A platform is like a Conference. So let’s call Epsilon AFC.
Sometimes there are variations on a platform, like Divisions in a Conference like AFC East, AFC South, AFC West, and AFC North. So, let’s call E1 AFC East and let’s call P1 AFC South.

A program is like a franchise, so within the AFC East (E1) you have the Buffalo Bills (E1SC - Malibu), New England Patriots (Regal -E1SB), et cetera. And in AFC South you have the Houston Texans (Cadillac XTS - P1LL), Indy Colts (Lacrosse - E1LB), Jax Jaguars (Impala - E1LC or P1LC), et cetera.

The platform refresh would then be E2 with the same body style and brand descriptors. So current Malibu is E2SC, Regal was E2SB, et cetera.


Product Planning, where I spent the last 20 years of my career at GM, owns the development of and the assignment of program codes. Why XTS is P1LL and Lacrosse is E1LB, built in the same plant on the same platform was probably an arbitrary choice and/or an attempt to make Cadillac feel special (P = Premium?). I can only guess.



All I can say is GMA does their best to consolidate a lot of information into something meaningful and useful for non-insiders. There is a lot in the link that is supposition. For example, I’ve never heard anyone inside GM refer to a “Super Epsilon”.

Impala is also a bit more complicated in that when the last version of Impala was rolled out in 2014, the previous version remained in market as “Impala Limited” and was sold primarily to rental car fleets. That version of Impala was always a popular car in rental car fleets, so shifting the nameplate to Impala Limited allowed GM to continue to draw revenue from selling to rental car fleets while also keeping the new Impala out of the rental car fleets (high volume rental reduces residual rates that are used to calculate lease terms). Same thing was done with Malibu a couple times with overlapping product cycles. Remember Malibu Classic?

Thanks. Those are a lot of codes to remember, however I think I can remember the eras of certain cars. The epsilon chassis debuted in the US at around '04 with the ugly duckling Malibu (I may be wrong, I remember the rear suspension difference). GM took a hard look at the malibu's design and really put their foot into the re-design for '07. The 7th gen Malibu remains as one of the most significant generations of Malibu, as its good looks made everyone take notice. The 8th generation, to some people's surprise, was significant as it was a major improvement in technology and fit and finish. It took a bad rap for its rear seat legroom, as during this period there was still healthy competition in the midsized sedan market.

Impala ended up being worn down IMO by GM. For one, the Impala line started with an uninspired design (similar to '04 Malibu). The re-design for '06 provided a bit of a bright spot, with the Impala SS. Unfortunately it seemed that by '11 that design was going stale as well. Chevy continued to use the design as rental and fleet units, and while it made profit for the company IMO it continued to promote the impala as an out of date or out of touch automobile. The re-design for '14 was fresh and ambitious, but by then a lot of the damage to the name plate was done by the previous generations. Add to it, the large car segment receded and there may have been at best one or two players left in the genre. Crossovers were emerging in the market and pushed out many of the sedan and coupes left on the market.

Alas; Whether it was good or bad, to my eyes the car market has suffered and has become an uneventful arena. The car market is now an arena where it almost doesn't matter which car you buy new, as most people will keep them a few years and or until the warranty runs out, and then move on to another model. I do not see the allegiance to a brand as I once did, and the designs IMO are uninspiring and generic.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

A while back I was told the P1XX cars were basically E2XX cars with a trunk extension.

Slightly over-simplified but not wrong.

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by lbls1

Thanks. Those are a lot of codes to remember, however I think I can remember the eras of certain cars. The epsilon chassis debuted in the US at around '04 with the ugly duckling Malibu (I may be wrong, I remember the rear suspension difference). GM took a hard look at the malibu's design and really put their foot into the re-design for '07. The 7th gen Malibu remains as one of the most significant generations of Malibu, as its good looks made everyone take notice. The 8th generation, to some people's surprise, was significant as it was a major improvement in technology and fit and finish. It took a bad rap for its rear seat legroom, as during this period there was still healthy competition in the midsized sedan market.

Impala ended up being worn down IMO by GM. For one, the Impala line started with an uninspired design (similar to '04 Malibu). The re-design for '06 provided a bit of a bright spot, with the Impala SS. Unfortunately it seemed that by '11 that design was going stale as well. Chevy continued to use the design as rental and fleet units, and while it made profit for the company IMO it continued to promote the impala as an out of date or out of touch automobile. The re-design for '14 was fresh and ambitious, but by then a lot of the damage to the name plate was done by the previous generations. Add to it, the large car segment receded and there may have been at best one or two players left in the genre. Crossovers were emerging in the market and pushed out many of the sedan and coupes left on the market.

Alas; Whether it was good or bad, to my eyes the car market has suffered and has become an uneventful arena. The car market is now an arena where it almost doesn't matter which car you buy new, as most people will keep them a few years and or until the warranty runs out, and then move on to another model. I do not see the allegiance to a brand as I once did, and the designs IMO are uninspiring and generic.

I agree.

There was a time when GM took pride in every vehicle produced and their promotions substantiated it.



Apparently, they chose to milk the Impala for short-term profits, by making it more utilitarian and feeding it to the fleet sharks.

Unfortunately, as you mentioned, by the time they attempted reverse course, the damage was done.

I absolutely love my 2019 Impala 1LT in Dark Titanium leather and Blue Velvet Metallic with a more than ample V6. Maybe someday this final generation will become collectible.

[BluinSC]

That 14 was nice. It was my first car. You can legitimately fit 3 adults in the trunk. Had a Silver 14 LT

I got rid of it for my Camaro during the 20% off days in 2017. But that V6 can sing and it was good on gas. Gigantic fuel tank too and RELIABLE.

There's a number of them in my town and still turn my head. Same with the 17 ~19 Lacrosse ( which I also owned for a bit).

[GearheadSS]

Blazer EV is finally here.....and it immediately has a stop-sale placed on it by GM. It does look great.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxEIhmgPOwi/

[90503]

Originally Posted by GearheadSS

Blazer EV is finally here.....and it immediately has a stop-sale placed on it by GM. It does look great.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxEIhmgPOwi/

Ok, I'll be that guy...."stop-sale"...???

I hope those Blazers eventually do well for your business...Good luck.

P.S. No frunk is a bummer....I don't get why they were a unique/standard thing for EVs, but the Blazer doesn't have it.

[90503]

Love my '17 Impala...Last of the full-size cars...We had several full-size chevy's back in the day...'59 Biscayne, '65 Impala, '67 Impala...After those I never had much interest in them until they announced the newer full sized ones would be ending...The fleet/rental versions I never paid any attention to those. They don't bother me as far as any kind of legacy...Who really gives a crap about that anyway...I liked the '17, got a great 20% plus off deal on it. Sure, I was sentimental about the name, but the car was just what I wanted. Last of the V6, no stop-start, no cylinder de-activation, great price,huge trunk and passenger room. It's been 100% trouble free for almost six years now...

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by 90503

Ok, I'll be that guy...."stop-sale"...???

I hope those Blazers eventually do well for your business...Good luck.

P.S. No frunk is a bummer....I don't get why they were a unique/standard thing for EVs, but the Blazer doesn't have it.

Stop-sale or stop-delivery is what GM does when they find an issue with a new vehicle. Usually something found during production and can affect just a few vehicles or thousands. In the case of the Blazer EV, whatever it is, affects 1200 of them in dealer stock or in transit.

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by 90503

They don't bother me as far as any kind of legacy...Who really gives a crap about that anyway...

Genuine automotive zealots, such as myself.

[90503]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

Genuine automotive zealots, such as myself.

I used to care. But if the manufacturers don't give a hoot about it, I'm not going to lose any sleep over a lost cause.