[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

#3, could you come up with a subjective price rating for the (in)convenience of charging versus fill-ups? Also, how is it in bad weather as a daily driver? you picked a good time of year.

For my fill-ups, half the time it's also a stop for a drink or meal. I consider it either low-importance time, or time I can easily make back up on the road. Maybe worth a few bucks a week, say $3. I couldn't say for plugging in daily.

I recently saw a stuck Tesla (3 or Y, flashers on) off an on-ramp in icy slush. There were also other people having trouble moving in 'sporty' gas vehicles. When I shopped a Volt 10 years ago, I thought it looked low, even with the higher clearance air dam.

I may be able to help out a bit on this. We owned Volts from 2012 until February 2023. Front wheel drive and low center of gravity help a lot for poor weather traction. Very confident car to drive in the winter. Never got stuck or spun out in Detroit winters. The plastic trim under the spoiler does hang really low and a good number of Volts don’t make it through life with it still attached. We managed to keep it intact on both cars. Surprising given the number of speed bumps installed in our neighborhood.

As for the Tesla stuck on a slushy off ramp, there are a few possibilities here. Base trim Tesla Model 3 and Y are one-motor RWD. They might be traction challenged in that scenario. Or if the car was a Performance trim it might have had the Pirelli summer performance tires on it. Most Model 3/Y Performance owners swap to snow tires. Those who don’t might be in for a surprise in really snowy conditions. Our Model Y is a two-motor long range trim. We haven’t had any snow to speak of yet but I expect it will do just fine.

[genxer]

It was on on-ramp onto a highway bridge. It looked like the guy pushed wide and got stuck in icy'er deep slush. I think Martinjlm was spot on.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

I would think the extra weight from the battery would help with traction.

It does help some, but the weight is pretty much distributed across the entire wheelbase. No real downward focus like you get with the engine over the axles in a FWD car (Volt). So with a 1-motor car, there is no real weight over the powered wheels (rear) and if they don’t have traction, it’s not much different than an ICE RWD in snow. Dual motor cars effectively have AWD and can transition the power to the wheels that have the best traction.

[Number 3]

Ok , here is an interesting bit. I have home charging worked out and it’s easy and straight forward. But the ID4 advertises a range of 275 miles……BUT they also strongly recommend charging to 80% or 220 miles of range. No real world impact and as I’ve mentioned my Buick LaCrosse had a realistic range of 220 miles due to a small tank.

Other issue,and a small one, is the windshield is electrically heated. Because of this our normal gate transponders don’t work. There are workarounds so as I said, small problem.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ok , here is an interesting bit. I have home charging worked out and it’s easy and straight forward. But the ID4 advertises a range of 275 miles……BUT they also strongly recommend charging to 80% or 220 miles of range. No real world impact and as I’ve mentioned my Buick LaCrosse had a realistic range of 220 miles due to a small tank.

Other issue,and a small one, is the windshield is electrically heated. Because of this our normal gate transponders don’t work. There are workarounds so as I said, small problem.

The 80% charge is fairly normal for batteries with Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum (NCA) or Nickel-Maganese-Cobalt (NMC) chemistries. Basically, keeping the batteries at 100% for long periods of time can impact range over time. The batteries are “happiest” in the 20%-80% range. Tesla also recommends for cars with those battery formulations maxing the charging for everyday driving at about 80%. For me that’s 260 miles. Enough to drive more than a week locally. For long trips it’s okay to charge to 100% since you’ll be driving it down from the 100%, not letting it sit for long periods of time.

By contrast, lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries like to be charged to 100% and they like to be run down to single digit percentages. They do that with little or no range degradation over time. But they don’t have the power density and fast power delivery of NCA and NMC batteries. So you wind up needing more LFP kWh than NCA or NMC batteries (and therefore more mass) to achieve the same range. They also charge slower. And they are also less costly since they don’t use cobalt or manganese. Base level Tesla Model 3 cars use LFP batteries. The Model 3 Performance uses NMC to achieve that car’s strong performance.

Basically, LFP batteries are like the 3.6L HFV6 of batteries. NCA and NCM are the LT1 of batteries. Then when you start speccing the motor sizes and placement you’re building the LT4 and LT5 variants.

[The Chief (tm)]

James/Jim/JLM (!),

Had not known that the different battery chemistries might invite different optimal charging / charge maintenance strategies. (It almost feels like there's a "memory effect" joke in here somewhere, just waiting to get out...!)

Also, while probs could have guessed that the battery componentry ("ingredients"?) would effect charging rates, I definitely did not know that this can affect *output* rates as well, as you describe vis-a-vis the "regular" Model 3 compared to the Performance models. Very interesting.

[Number 3]

Well if you can get over the politics of an EV or feeling like you are being forced to buy one, it’s actually pretty fun to drive. The ID4 is low for an SUV, a bit tall for a sedan. But handling is really good. This really comes down to convenience of charging. If you can do it at home it’s no big deal. It really seems like it comes down to cost of the vehicle. EVs just cost more. Are you going to save enough in gas to offset that. But just driving it? It easily replaces your DD and you won’t miss a thing.

[detamble13]

Originally Posted by Number 3

But just driving it? It easily replaces your DD and you won’t miss a thing.

I DD my SS Camaro and I would miss the exhaust note and manual transmission. It does surprising well in a few inches of snow and sliding sideways into my parking spot with traction and stability control off is a blast.

Our other vehicle is a Toyota Sienna and we take that on vacation, usually in the States, and if it was a BEV I could care less. I would care if there is added inconvenience to an already long road trip though. I try to keep politics out of most decisions, especially large ticket purchases, but I currently can't see any transportation related benefits for me to make the switch to an EV. The new hybrid Sienna could save me on gas and I'd look at that if/when it needs to be replaced.

[docwra]

Originally Posted by Roostie

What 102SS is true with respect to track driving. The Plaid can't repeatedly lap a racetrack at anywhere close to full speed.

This is a pic from a road trip on the NC500 in Scotland, 500 miles round some of the best driving roads youll find anywhere in the world. We generally attempt to drive it as fast as possible.

Youll notice a Tesla Model 3 Performance at the end of the line that keeps up with everything else in this picture, the driver usually gets out a bit fresher then the rest of us too.
Admittedly he usually has to slow down for final 10% as hes running low on charge but theres no dropoff in performance, its incredible that a shopping car gets anywhere close.

This is the pic from the year before, unfortunately Tesla didnt make this shot but hopefully you can see what Im getting at:

[Number 3]

But there is this. Something I won't experience here in Florida

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ch...7b80ece99&ei=8

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by detamble13

I DD my SS Camaro and I would miss the exhaust note and manual transmission. It does surprising well in a few inches of snow and sliding sideways into my parking spot with traction and stability control off is a blast.

Our other vehicle is a Toyota Sienna and we take that on vacation, usually in the States, and if it was a BEV I could care less. I would care if there is added inconvenience to an already long road trip though. I try to keep politics out of most decisions, especially large ticket purchases, but I currently can't see any transportation related benefits for me to make the switch to an EV. The new hybrid Sienna could save me on gas and I'd look at that if/when it needs to be replaced.

Agree completely. It's the NVH issue and if you throw a manual on top of that it's hard to get that with an EV. I think one of the Kias has an fake engine sound, but technically so do some BMWs that manage the sound in the cabin.

Folks I know that take long trips with an EV (generally Teslas) do it with both planning and technology. Tesla and their pretty large charger network can get you from a to b fairly smoothly. BUT you will still have charging time to deal with. If you combine that with a bite to eat and a bathroom break, it's not too bad.

Don't plan on any really long trips with this car just for knowing where the chargers are and availability, which Tesla does pretty well.

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

This is my main objection. I'm being forced to subsidize this farce with my taxes.

Meant forced to buy one, but totally agree with the government subsidies on both the cars (even more on commercial trucks btw) and also the charging stations.

People have to realize that even California is NOT forcing EVs. What they have mandated is zero emissions vehicles. The automakers are the ones that are currently dictating that the answer to that is an EV. It can also be a Fuel Cell.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

I'm honestly not sure what your point is. You know a guy who drives a Tesla in Scotland and is able to keep up with some random folks who drive other cars?

Does this mean that EVs don't have range issues? Does it mean they aren't more expensive than ICE vehicles? Does it mean installing a home charger is inexpensive? Does it mean EVs can recharge quickly? Does it mean they're no longer more expensive to repair? Does it mean they're no longer more expensive to insure? Does it mean their batteries no longer use rare earth metals the extraction of which is super polluting?

Or does it just mean that some random folks somewhere who drive around in fast cars and there's an EV that joins them?

Back when I was a Harley rider we would occasionally let a guy on a rice rocket join us, but we never forgot he was on a rice rocket and we were on Harleys.

Hopefully you can see what I'm getting at.

I think his point is that the 500 mile drive driving hard through hills and curves is similar to an extended track day and that the Tesla Plaid was able to do it. At least that’s what I got out of it. Then there’s this video from Throttle House comparing track performance of a Tesla Model 3 Performance, a BMW M2, and an Audi RS3. The video is 4 years old.

TLDW the Tesla holds its own, outperforming one of them and within 0.5 seconds of the other. No discussion of the car being unable to repeat the session due to battery drain or brake fade or any of the other logical reasons. And this was 4 years ago. The Model 3 Performance has improved a lot since then. Some of that improvement delivered to existing owners in over the air updates. EV’s can’t track. Myth busted.

https://youtu.be/9Pu9046wX9g?si=XpRQ-x2YVGwXepXr

The base prices of the cars on TH Fast List:

1LE:$50,895
Mustang GT: $46,210
M2 Comp: $63,200
Model 3 Perf: $42,740
Civic Type R: $44,795
Audi RS3: $61,700
Veloster N: $33,595
VW Golf R: $46,890

EVs are more expensive than similar ICE cars. Myth busted.

[detamble13]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Agree completely. It's the NVH issue and if you throw a manual on top of that it's hard to get that with an EV.

Just interested in some of the things you considered when choosing the id4. I read that your company allowed you to lease a vehicle for work so I assume they didn't give you a blank cheque. So given the parameters were laid out by the company how did you narrow it down? Feel free to let us know your budget if you can.

In terms of EVs the Taycan/Etron seem to be the most compelling to drive and the best looking. A model S looks good too but not as good.

[genxer]

What chemistry did the Volt use? It looks like LFP would have been the best choice there if it was available.

And I just spent a whole mid day driving with a clear wet right lane and a clear tire track/slushed left. I pass a slow right lane Model 3. And the guy gets a bug up his butt, to the left going 10 over, just to chicken out and slow back down in front. The only other intentionally dangerous move I saw yesterday was tailgating. An everyday driver economy EV that defeats conditions doesn't exist yet.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Agree completely. It's the NVH issue and if you throw a manual on top of that it's hard to get that with an EV. I think one of the Kias has an fake engine sound, but technically so do some BMWs that manage the sound in the cabin.

Folks I know that take long trips with an EV (generally Teslas) do it with both planning and technology. Tesla and their pretty large charger network can get you from a to b fairly smoothly. BUT you will still have charging time to deal with. If you combine that with a bite to eat and a bathroom break, it's not too bad.

Don't plan on any really long trips with this car just for knowing where the chargers are and availability, which Tesla does pretty well.



Meant forced to buy one, but totally agree with the government subsidies on both the cars (even more on commercial trucks btw) and also the charging stations.

People have to realize that even California is NOT forcing EVs. What they have mandated is zero emissions vehicles. The automakers are the ones that are currently dictating that the answer to that is an EV. It can also be a Fuel Cell.

Is your car a 20-80% fast charge? With normal conditions, what is fastest miles per minute recovery? And to what usable range for a next highway stint? If you get a chance to test. I've seen an early Lyriq posted charging video where there was an unexplained dip in the middle of charging at 100-something kW.