ZL1, CTSV, ZR1 and other intercooler pump flow test results

[Graham Behan]

[QUOTE=SRT10KLLR;6415713]I only ask because whenever water pumps are mentioned their name always pops up as the best. My friend has had his STS rear mount turbo on his Silverado for about 8 years and one of the first things he did was get a bigger heat exchanger and replace the pump with a Meziere. The difference in flow was night and day from what STS shipped out. He added a one gallon reservoir and you can see the flow(and hear it since it is quite load) when the cap is off. Will have to ask him which one he has.

I also have a rear mount with a W/A I/C and was looking to upgrade. First, it came with no reservoir and more importantly the pump no longer works so I have to replace it anyways.

QUOTE]

From the testing done, the ZR1, or either of the EMP pumps would seem the best choice, the only thing that may change that is you have a small coolant reservoir and with high flow rates, even though the effectiveness of the cooling will be increased by the high flow rates, the heating of the small water volume is potentially a problem for longer use at WOT.

Graham.

[jrh@lpe]

We would be glad to provide the pumps for third party (or is it fourth party at this point) validation but then that might lead to the an accusation that we rigged the pumps so I think, in order to make this as close to a double blind test as possible, you should hire a firm unrelated to the automotive aftermarket to do the testing and then buy the pumps on the open market or have them do so and make sure they are purchased without the selling company knowing what they are going to be used for.


Jason/LPE disclosure statement for possible ulterior motives for releasing this data:

• I am an engineer and a bit of a geek so I just like talking and writing about this kind of stuff. I don't post on Camaro5 that often but I do from time to time. I try to post technically relevant information on this forum, LS1Tech and other related forums while still getting my day to day work done. (BTW – I edited my post for content to try to keep the length of it down because I am often accused of being long winded so that was my short version that I posted.)
• Releasing this data gets LPE publicity for the pumps we sell and for all of the other products we sell. It also shows that we do actual empirical test measurements as part of the testing and engineering involved in our product development and our product validation. We feel this sets LPE apart from many companies that do not have the facilities or engineering staff to do so. Even when we don't design or make the part and are just reselling it, like in the case of any of these intercooler pumps, we test what we sell to make sure it does what it claims.
• In addition, LPE spent over $4000 on the flow test equipment and then another couple thousand in installation, fixturing etc. parts and labor to install the flow test equipment and then spent a fair amount on the pumps themselves and then we have over 100 man hours in this testing and data analysis. That is a lot of cost in parts and labor that I need to justify. Releasing this data is one way to do that. [Note - Hopefully nobody in accounting does the math on this because we would have to sell a lot of pumps to cover that cost.]

In terms of the relationship with Meziere, no conflict exists of any kind that I am aware of. They have done contract flow testing for us on mechanical water pumps. I often speak to them at the trade shows and have had them quote on custom parts for us in the past.

Originally Posted by ayousef

someone has to question stuff like this that get posted up. Lingenfelter never post on this forum and then come with a big post like this, why would anyone give free information there is no such thing as a free lunch.


The fact that the word Meziere was not once mentioned in the OP tells that there is a conflict between LPE and Meziere and based on what I know Meziere are one of the ****iest companies you can ever deal with.

From the instant I read the word "common 20gpm pump" I knew that LPE was gonna drop the H bomb on Meziere hence I used the word "biased".

LPE are standup guys and ive dealt with them in the past and will do so in the future, but I would like to see this test done by someone else that is totally unbiased to any of the products listed above and is not a vendor of any. Hard to find someone willing to do the test? No and if this gets too far I will make someone test all those pumps just for the hell of it

ADM, LPE's close friend drops the bomb on two other vendors selling those pumps one of which is obviously Torq. Torq claimed they saw a significant drop in inlet temps with the 55gpm pump and said they did extensive research on that pump. LPE says the opposite, someone has to be wrong here which brings be back to the reason I question vendor claims.

[SRT10KLLR]

[QUOTE=Graham Behan;6416336]

Originally Posted by SRT10KLLR

I only ask because whenever water pumps are mentioned their name always pops up as the best. My friend has had his STS rear mount turbo on his Silverado for about 8 years and one of the first things he did was get a bigger heat exchanger and replace the pump with a Meziere. The difference in flow was night and day from what STS shipped out. He added a one gallon reservoir and you can see the flow(and hear it since it is quite load) when the cap is off. Will have to ask him which one he has.

I also have a rear mount with a W/A I/C and was looking to upgrade. First, it came with no reservoir and more importantly the pump no longer works so I have to replace it anyways.

QUOTE]

From the testing done, the ZR1, or either of the EMP pumps would seem the best choice, the only thing that may change that is you have a small coolant reservoir and with high flow rates, even though the effectiveness of the cooling will be increased by the high flow rates, the heating of the small water volume is potentially a problem for longer use at WOT.

Graham.

Don't even have a reservoir, lol. It has an aluminum adapter with a radiator cap on it attached to one hose that can be removed to add water/coolant. But because the barrel cooler is in the back the hoses can hold a good amount of water. Was thinking of getting a bigger heat exchanger for the front, adding a reservoir and getting a good quality pump.

[jrh@lpe]

The Bosch, OEM ZL1, OEM ZR1, VariMax and EMP pumps are centrifugal pumps.

I haven't taken the 20GPM and the 55GPM pumps apart but I am fairly certain the 55GPM pump is also a centrifugal pump because I can see the impeller. Not sure on the 20GPM pump but engine coolant pumps for automotive type applications are usually centrifugal pumps since you don't have to worry about viscosity issues or significant debris (and other reasons).

The Bosch, the 20GPM and the 55GPM pumps are conventional brush type DC motors. The ZL1, ZR1, VariMax and EMP pumps are DC brushless pumps with integral on-board controllers. The VariMax pump can be speed controlled via an external signal but we normally just use it in on/off type control. The Stewart-EMP built in pump controller offers a broad range of capabilities depending on what you want to do (CAN etc.) but normally it is just used in on/off type control.

Originally Posted by old motorhead

Are these centrifugal pumps, gear pumps, or other?

[jrh@lpe]

Here are pictures of the pumps that were tested and mentioned in the above data:

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

I WILL POSTA VIDEO OF THAT STEWART WARNER PUMP NEXTWEEK DOING ITS JOB

[Blue70SS]

Originally Posted by jrh@lpe

We would be glad to provide the pumps for third party (or is it fourth party at this point) validation but then that might lead to the an accusation that we rigged the pumps so I think, in order to make this as close to a double blind test as possible, you should hire a firm unrelated to the automotive aftermarket to do the testing and then buy the pumps on the open market or have them do so and make sure they are purchased without the selling company knowing what they are going to be used for.


Jason/LPE disclosure statement for possible ulterior motives for releasing this data:

• I am an engineer and a bit of a geek so I just like talking and writing about this kind of stuff. I don't post on Camaro5 that often but I do from time to time. I try to post technically relevant information on this forum, LS1Tech and other related forums while still getting my day to day work done. (BTW – I edited my post for content to try to keep the length of it down because I am often accused of being long winded so that was my short version that I posted.)
• Releasing this data gets LPE publicity for the pumps we sell and for all of the other products we sell. It also shows that we do actual empirical test measurements as part of the testing and engineering involved in our product development and our product validation. We feel this sets LPE apart from many companies that do not have the facilities or engineering staff to do so. Even when we don't design or make the part and are just reselling it, like in the case of any of these intercooler pumps, we test what we sell to make sure it does what it claims.
• In addition, LPE spent over $4000 on the flow test equipment and then another couple thousand in installation, fixturing etc. parts and labor to install the flow test equipment and then spent a fair amount on the pumps themselves and then we have over 100 man hours in this testing and data analysis. That is a lot of cost in parts and labor that I need to justify. Releasing this data is one way to do that. [Note - Hopefully nobody in accounting does the math on this because we would have to sell a lot of pumps to cover that cost.]

In terms of the relationship with Meziere, no conflict exists of any kind that I am aware of. They have done contract flow testing for us on mechanical water pumps. I often speak to them at the trade shows and have had them quote on custom parts for us in the past.

Thanks for all the hard work testing

[Rat]

Where or who sells the Stewart-EP pump?

LPE sells the Varimax?

[ayousef]

Thanks for the explanation, Ok i do have a few more questions:

- if the EMP pumo flowed 7.7gpm you had to have 23psi of pressure in the system. The other pumps produced their flow rates at about 6psi based on both graphs posted.

- is 6psi the pressure of the stock zl1 system and stock pump? Does this sound high or is this the norm

- wouldnt a larger intercooler and larger heat exchanger lower that pressure in the system

- 90+ % of people use hoses and barbed hose fittings for the intercooler system, can those handle the rather high pressures from the EMP?

[old motorhead]

Appreciate you guys doing the work and posting results I always wondered how the 50gpm pump fit into this equation. 10gpm through 3/4" plumbing has the fluid moving pretty fast. 50gpm has to be fire hose like. Either it has to be moving stupid fast with too much pressure or it's not 50gpm. I was losing sleep over that.......

[bwnunnally]

Very nice test & documentation.

I did a limited intercooler pump test here in a back to back test of the stock Bosch Cadillac STS-V pump and a Jabsco 29 gpm pump.

An additional detail of interest is the system characteristic curve for the stock or modified intercooler system. By graphing that curve against your pump characteristic curves you can estimate the gpm flow of a given pump in the stock system, or systems with popular modifications. For example, a system with an additional HX will have a different resistance than a stock system.

Resistance to flow presented by the system is not constant, but varies based on the rate of flow. At low gpm of flow the system resistance is low; at higher gpm flow it grows rapidly. If the system flow is graphed across the pump characteristic flows, one can see where that pump will flow in the system -- it is the intersection of the system characteristic curve and the pump characteristic curve for that pump.



I have tried to sketch in a system curve for my modified STS-V system on the pump characteristic curves from your test result. It is sketchy without doing it in the actual graphing tools but provided to show the concept.

In my test by presenting a pressure head I was able to document system rate of flow at very low pressures, and system rate of flow with the Bosch pump. This then described a system characteristic curve, that when tested with the replacement pump was predictive of the actual result.

To define the system curve for the ZL1 system you would vary the flow rate and measure the pressure, then graph that across your pump characteristic curve graphs.

[jrh@lpe]

Yes, LPE sells the Varimax. We also sell the Stewart-EMP (in standard form and then in reprogrammed form with the higher current limit).

I am sure other companies on this forum (and outside this forum) sell these same parts as well.

Originally Posted by Rat

Where or who sells the Stewart-EP pump?

LPE sells the Varimax?

[jrh@lpe]

The stock system (ZL1 pump, ZL1 intercooler, ZL1 intercooler radiator) was around 8 psi of differential pressure. This is fairly normal differential pressure for an intercooler system.

Yes, the Stewart-EMP pump (high current reprogrammed version) is at around 21 psi of differential pressure when in the ZL1 system. This includes over 1 psi of inlet vacuum. If a 1" inlet hose and reservoir were used that inlet vacuum would probably be less and the output of the pump would be a little more.

Hoses like this and clamps like this are used on engine coolant lines at much higher static pressure and differential pressures so 20-25 psi is no problem for these hoses. I would be more worried about the inlet negative pressure especially on non-reinforced hoses that might get soft when they get hot.

A larger intercooler and/or intercooler radiator could lower the pressure drop or increase it depending on how they are designed. As an example, for the same heat exchanger dimensions, a double pass design increases pressure drop since the fluid has to travel twice as far in half the cross sectional area. Basically it is a good idea to check what the pressure is with your new system. If the pump stayed the same and the outlet pressure from the pump went up then your flow went down.

Originally Posted by ayousef

Thanks for the explanation, Ok i do have a few more questions:

- if the EMP pumo flowed 7.7gpm you had to have 23psi of pressure in the system. The other pumps produced their flow rates at about 6psi based on both graphs posted.

- is 6psi the pressure of the stock zl1 system and stock pump? Does this sound high or is this the norm

- wouldnt a larger intercooler and larger heat exchanger lower that pressure in the system

- 90+ % of people use hoses and barbed hose fittings for the intercooler system, can those handle the rather high pressures from the EMP?

[jrh@lpe]

Keep in mind that the two sets of data I presented are not from the same test configuration. The data from the bar graph is tested in the ZL1 system configuration with just changing the pump alone from test to test.

The line graph data is not related to the ZL1 system (other than a ZL1 pump was also tested) and the hose sizes (and fittings when needed) were changed to the hose sizes normally used or recommended for each particular pump.

Originally Posted by bwnunnally

Very nice test & documentation.

I did a limited intercooler pump test here in a back to back test of the stock Bosch Cadillac STS-V pump and a Jabsco 29 gpm pump.

An additional detail of interest is the system characteristic curve for the stock or modified intercooler system. By graphing that curve against your pump characteristic curves you can estimate the gpm flow of a given pump in the stock system, or systems with popular modifications. For example, a system with an additional HX will have a different resistance than a stock system.

Resistance to flow presented by the system is not constant, but varies based on the rate of flow. At low gpm of flow the system resistance is low; at higher gpm flow it grows rapidly. If the system flow is graphed across the pump characteristic flows, one can see where that pump will flow in the system -- it is the intersection of the system characteristic curve and the pump characteristic curve for that pump.



I have tried to sketch in a system curve for my modified STS-V system on the pump characteristic curves from your test result. It is sketchy without doing it in the actual graphing tools but provided to show the concept.

In my test by presenting a pressure head I was able to document system rate of flow at very low pressures, and system rate of flow with the Bosch pump. This then described a system characteristic curve, that when tested with the replacement pump was predictive of the actual result.

To define the system curve for the ZL1 system you would vary the flow rate and measure the pressure, then graph that across your pump characteristic curve graphs.