[Number 3]

You guys are slightly missing the point. GM is trying make as much profit as possible with the Camaro. Having a higher per unit profit is a subset of that goal. Ultimate goal is high (plan or higher) sales volume AND highest margin.

Also ATP has nothing to do with margin. We assume because Camaro has a higher ATP it is more profitable. At a minimum GM has to pay for a LOT more retires per Camaro than Ford.

My speculation, without the data, is Ford's ATP is lower because they sell more 4 and 6 cylinder cars than GM does. Assume for example that GM sold more base base Camaros to match Fords volume. The Camaro ATP would drop significantly.

Also, not selling to rental fleets is much more than having a higher ATP. It protects residual values leading to better lease prices and better trade ins. This is the reason GM brought the Captiva to the US a few years back. It only sold to rental fleets so they could keep Equinox out of fleet sales.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by germanicus

Not really. The numbers you quoted above are U.S. only.

Given the US is the largest pony car market, domestic sales and revenue are rather important no? It is also the most competitive market for performance cars.

Originally Posted by germanicus

When you expand out to Canada/Europe/Asia, the contrast is much more weighed in favor of Mustang sales. Globally Mustang is crushing it.

In volume, of a small market of sport coupes, sure. But volume isn’t the goal is it? What percentage of that revenue makes it back to Ford? More importantly how much profit is left after complying with each foreign country’s emission, safety, crash standards, local tariffs, import fees, shipping and transport costs?

Originally Posted by germanicus

It currently outsells 911's in Germany.

At vastly different price points. Ford could only dream of the profits Porsche makes.

Originally Posted by germanicus

The fact that GM had well over 100 days of inventory sitting on lots for most of 2017, does not bode well in terms of them meeting production vs. sales metrics.

Can you share these “production vs sales metrics” GM provided you access to? Perhaps you know how much it costs GM to maintain their inventory vs profits lost by fleet dumping at bargain basement prices? It’s so simple - GM just doesn’t understand how to make money. If only they had your ideas and insight

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

It’s so simple - GM just doesn’t understand how to make money.

Well, they did crash the ship in the past. Maybe they dont always know how.


To me, they failed with the Gen6 by giving a select few what they wanted unless they want it to be a low volume performance car. If that we true, i doubt they would be putting 4bangers and 6s in them.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Well, they did crash the ship in the past. Maybe they dont always know how.

What domestic automaker has generated more profit or revenue since 2010? They don’t know how to make money?

Originally Posted by motorhead

To me, they failed with the Gen6 by giving a select few what they wanted unless they want it to be a low volume performance car. If that we true, i doubt they would be putting 4bangers and 6s in them.

If those select few actually buying cars are willing to pay more money for a Camaro than the competition, then they didn’t fail.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

What domestic automaker has generated more profit or revenue since 2010? They don’t know how to make money?



If those select few actually buying cars are willing to pay more money for a Camaro than the competition then they didn’t fail.

And they had a lot of years making money before they failed the last time. Im just saying no company gets it right all the time. Their trucks and SUV s are their money makers. Not Camaros. I bet their profit would go up if they dropped the Camaro.

And that's just it. Their ins't enough of the select few to support the car. The sales numbers proove that. If they want to keep it, they shoukd drop the 4 bangers and the sixes. Offer SS, SS-1LE, ZL1 and ZL1-1LE. Then price it for high profit. Thus we just filled the gap the Vette will create going to a midengine 100grand supercar.

[Chazzz]

GM's goal is to keep its total supply on dealers lots at 70 days or less. The company promised its shareholders it would get inventories under control after they reached record high inventories of over 100 days at the end of last July. To reach this goal the company cut 5 shifts at US plants slowed the production lines and cut over 6,000 jobs. Future plans are to keep supply in line with demand by eliminating shifts at other plants as necessary. The companies plan is to keep inventories under control to avoid large costly incentives. The plan seems to be working as 2018 started off with a January supply of just 63 days, it's lowest level in two years. So rather than fleet large amounts of cars at very low profits that diminishes lease return and resale values and rather than put huge incentives on the hoods of new vehicles to keep plants running at max capacity, it will be cancel shifts, slow production lines and cut jobs as necesarry. It is also keeping shareholders happy as values are up nearly 30% since mid 2017. All this while total sales have continued to decline. This should help explain why the alarmingly low Camaro sales of late went without huge incentives to attempt to increase sales.

[Kobra_Klutch]

Many members of this site over the past 2.5 years have been saying that sales would pick up once the special trimmed models were released (1LE, ZL1, and ZL1 1LE..next up a Z/28?). Then there were those who said it was because of the time of year and etc. The sales are poor and probably for the reasons most have already stated. I guess you can't win them all.

I believe the honeymoon of the 5th gen is over and the marriage counseling sessions are being scheduled for the 6th gen. It's a fabulous car but it doesn't have mass appeal as it once did with the 5th gen. I believe the Challenger has stolen that thunder for now. Even though the 6 gen is a vast improvement over the 5th most people see the car as being visually the same car as the one it replaced but with a higher sticker price, reduced outward visibility, and less utility than the competition. It seems that the majority of consumers want a nice mix of many features and capabilities out of this segment of cars. And it appears many people just aren't putting the Camaro at #1 when all the variables are taken into account.

I could careless who wins the sales war annually. I'm more concerned with getting the best bang for my buck and I would place the Camaro in 3rd place for perceived overall value of these 3 cars. The new crop of customers coming up are not in tune with cars like their parents and grandparents were. The social dynamic has changed from driving around and dragging the small town strips to being engrossed into cyberspace. Things are changing and I think the Camaro is now becoming more of a Corvette niche type car in today's market and we know the stigma that goes along with being a Corvette owner. Signs of the times as they say.

Get the Camaro while it's still available and enjoy the heck out of it if you really want one. Who cares what the others are buying and driving. If the Camaro brings you the joy that you've been craving all of this chitter chatter should be moot.

Good chat.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by Kobra_Klutch

Many members of this site over the past 2.5 years have been saying that sales would pick up once the special trimmed models were released (1LE, ZL1, and ZL1 1LE..next up a Z/28?). Then there were those who said it was because of the time of year and etc. The sales are poor and probably for the reasons most have already stated. I guess you can't win them all.

I believe the honeymoon of the 5th gen is over and the marriage counseling sessions are being scheduled for the 6th gen. It's a fabulous car but it doesn't have mass appeal as it once did with the 5th gen. I believe the Challenger has stolen that thunder for now. Even though the 6 gen is a vast improvement over the 5th most people see the car as being visually the same car as the one it replaced but with a higher sticker price, reduced outward visibility, and less utility than the competition. It seems that the majority of consumers want a nice mix of many features and capabilities out of this segment of cars. And it appears many people just aren't putting the Camaro at #1 when all the variables are taken into account.

I could careless who wins the sales war annually. I'm more concerned with getting the best bang for my buck and I would place the Camaro in 3rd place for perceived overall value of these 3 cars. The new crop of customers coming up are not in tune with cars like their parents and grandparents were. The social dynamic has changed from driving around and dragging the small town strips to being engrossed into cyberspace. Things are changing and I think the Camaro is now becoming more of a Corvette niche type car in today's market and we know the stigma that goes along with being a Corvette owner. Signs of the times as they say.

Get the Camaro while it's still available and enjoy the heck out of it if you really want one. Who cares what the others are buying and driving. If the Camaro brings you the joy that you've been craving all of this chitter chatter should be moot.

Good chat.

I see the challenger as a beached whale , it sales although better then Camaros in February is still dropping. They have no plan on replacing its platform till 2021 and I don’t think stickers and paint is going to carry it till there redesign. With rising interest rates and the want for trucks and suvs the sales are not going to be that great . In a business sense I feel the Camaro is on the right track and will not go away , sales are always going to be up and down in this market .
You are right about the Camaro and Corvette, I chose the Camaro over the Corvette for the extra room and I loved the look that carried over form the 5th gen I had . As far as the best bang for the buck I would say the Gen6 SS 1Le is hard to match , if someone is looking for a true performance car that is .

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Chazzz

GM's goal is to keep its total supply on dealers lots at 70 days or less. The company promised its shareholders it would get inventories under control after they reached record high inventories of over 100 days at the end of last July. To reach this goal the company cut 5 shifts at US plants slowed the production lines and cut over 6,000 jobs. Future plans are to keep supply in line with demand by eliminating shifts at other plants as necessary. The companies plan is to keep inventories under control to avoid large costly incentives. The plan seems to be working as 2018 started off with a January supply of just 63 days, it's lowest level in two years. So rather than fleet large amounts of cars at very low profits that diminishes lease return and resale values and rather than put huge incentives on the hoods of new vehicles to keep plants running at max capacity, it will be cancel shifts, slow production lines and cut jobs as necesarry. It is also keeping shareholders happy as values are up nearly 30% since mid 2017. All this while total sales have continued to decline. This should help explain why the alarmingly low Camaro sales of late went without huge incentives to attempt to increase sales.

That's sad. They have no issues offering huge incentives on trucks. Instead of offing 10 to 12 grand off a truck these days why dont they just charge what a truck is actually worth?
Guess people need to see that big discount to make themselves feel good. Ford and Toyota dont seem to play that game as much as Chevy and Ram do. How do they manage to sell trucks?

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Kobra_Klutch

Many members of this site over the past 2.5 years have been saying that sales would pick up once the special trimmed models were released (1LE, ZL1, and ZL1 1LE..next up a Z/28?). Then there were those who said it was because of the time of year and etc. The sales are poor and probably for the reasons most have already stated. I guess you can't win them all.

I believe the honeymoon of the 5th gen is over and the marriage counseling sessions are being scheduled for the 6th gen. It's a fabulous car but it doesn't have mass appeal as it once did with the 5th gen. I believe the Challenger has stolen that thunder for now. Even though the 6 gen is a vast improvement over the 5th most people see the car as being visually the same car as the one it replaced but with a higher sticker price, reduced outward visibility, and less utility than the competition. It seems that the majority of consumers want a nice mix of many features and capabilities out of this segment of cars. And it appears many people just aren't putting the Camaro at #1 when all the variables are taken into account.

I could careless who wins the sales war annually. I'm more concerned with getting the best bang for my buck and I would place the Camaro in 3rd place for perceived overall value of these 3 cars. The new crop of customers coming up are not in tune with cars like their parents and grandparents were. The social dynamic has changed from driving around and dragging the small town strips to being engrossed into cyberspace. Things are changing and I think the Camaro is now becoming more of a Corvette niche type car in today's market and we know the stigma that goes along with being a Corvette owner. Signs of the times as they say.

Get the Camaro while it's still available and enjoy the heck out of it if you really want one. Who cares what the others are buying and driving. If the Camaro brings you the joy that you've been craving all of this chitter chatter should be moot.

Good chat.

I agree and the gen6 Camaro has been branded as the worse reliability in Chevy's line up with Chevy themselves at around 14 or 15th in predicted reliability rating. Is was also drop as recommended in CR.
Oh shoot, I mentioned CR. Now the flood gate will open with a sea of people saying not to believe them. They are biased. Except when the Gen5 got a recommended then then they liked them. Lol

Unfortunately, believe companies like CR, other publications or not other publications ,but a lot of people rely on these when they buy a car and 51% of buyers choose reliability as their main reason for picking one car over another.
Like I said above, the Gen6 is the best Camaro ever ,but you are correct in saying its not for the masses. Sales reflect that.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by motorhead

I agree and the gen6 Camaro has been branded as the worse reliability in Chevy's line up with Chevy themselves at around 14 or 15th in predicted reliability rating.
Is was also drop as recommended in CR.
Oh shoot, I mentioned CR. Now the flood gate will open with a sea of people saying not to believe them. They are biased. Except when the Gen5 got a recommended then then they liked them. Lol

Unfortunately, believe companies like CR, other publications or not other publications ,but a lot of people rely on these when they buy a car and 51% of buyers choose reliability as their main reason for picking one car over another.
Like I said above, the Gen6 is the best Camaro ever ,but you are correct in saying its not for the masses. Sales reflect that.

CR only polls CR subscribers. Do you know the demographic that subscribes to CR? How many of them are gearheads or performance guru's? As the data shows, more retail buyers are choosing Camaro and paying a premium for it.

JDPower reports actual trips to dealers for non-maintenance issues over the first three years of a model's life. Given the Camaro underwent a platform change in that span, not surprising it momentarily dropped a slot. Camaro has spent every year at the top since the 5th gen returned.

[GelflingEssence]

Originally Posted by indyz

The dealership experience leaves much to be desired as well. GM dealers are actually worse now, compared to when I was in the market for a GTO. I have no experience with dodge or Ford dealerships, are they similar?

That's the problem. It's a crapshoot as to whether or not your dealership sucks. My local Dodge/Chevrolet dealership (owned by the same parent company) is notoriously horrible. I have to go out of town to get decent service.

I hope Telsa shakes up the stale old dealership model.

[newmoon]

Maybe this will shine some light on why Camaro sales are lagging.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos...ignout#image=1

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Maybe this will shine some light on why Camaro sales are lagging.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos...ignout#image=1

That felt like a comparison done via spec sheet than actually driving the two cars.

Fuel economy should have been a tie. Lame excuse to give the win to the Mustang though.