[AZCamaroFan]

the base car is $300 cheaper so it wins on price

and that's the first article i've read claiming the mustang handles as well as the Camaro

[torqueaddict]

^^I laughed at the reliability comparo. I guess the hood erosion, oil leaks, grinding gears, ticking engines, driveline vibration, buggy infotainment system and A/C issues on the even the recent Mustangs didn't carry over. A mustang fanboy obviously wrote that article.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

CR only polls CR subscribers. Do you know the demographic that subscribes to CR? How many of them are gearheads or performance guru's? As the data shows, more retail buyers are choosing Camaro and paying a premium for it.

JDPower reports actual trips to dealers for non-maintenance issues over the first three years of a model's life. Given the Camaro underwent a platform change in that span, not surprising it momentarily dropped a slot. Camaro has spent every year at the top since the 5th gen returned.

What im talking about is perception.. i dont care if you dont read CR, JD powers or any of it, but the word gets around from people that do and only part of the facts get told. . We know the Camaro is a great car as enthusiasts, ,but the nunnies go off of what they hear and read instead of checking it out for themselves.
Its just like Kia. Look at the Stinger thread alone. People are trashing Kia because of cars they built 10 years ago. The perception is that they are still junk just because of the name. The reality is that they are at the top of they came with what they are doing and have transformed into building great cars. It will take years for people to change their perception. I can memember in the early days of Toyota. Their reputation in the USA was worse than Kia. Now look at them. They have the perception of being the best, but they arent as good as the once were. The new Tacoma is a POS and everyone is still saying how great a truck they are. Better keep a spare frame on hand if you have an older one. My nephew works at a Toyota garage. They had to lease another building to set up lift just to change out rusted frames on truck. They have two mechcanics that all they do is change frames. And they make great vehicles. Haha!!!

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by motorhead

What im talking about is perception.. i dont care if you dont read CR, JD powers or any of it, but the word gets around from people that do and only part of the facts get told. . We know the Camaro is a great car as enthusiasts, ,but the nunnies go off of what they hear and read instead of checking it out for themselves.
Its just like Kia. Look at the Stinger thread alone. People are trashing Kia because of cars they built 10 years ago. The perception is that they are still junk just because of the name. The reality is that they are at the top of they came with what they are doing and have transformed into building great cars. It will take years for people to change their perception. I can memember in the early days of Toyota. Their reputation in the USA was worse than Kia. Now look at them. They have the perception of being the best, but they arent as good as the once were. The new Tacoma is a POS and everyone is still saying how great a truck they are. Better keep a spare frame on hand if you have an older one. My nephew works at a Toyota garage. They had to lease another building to set up lift just to change out rusted frames on truck. They have two mechcanics that all they do is change frames. And they make great vehicles. Haha!!!

Quoted for truth!!

It takes a while for negative or positive preception to dissipate. Hyundai was in the same boat as Kia, now they're seen as a solid brand. Toyota is definitely having issues, with even the Camry, but you won't see that being printed in many places. The forums tell the real story. Same with Honda.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Bad? yes... No doubt.

Was February fleet dump month for Mustang and Challenger? Is Mustang doing great given the enhancements it just got?

I did say ALL of the cars had bad numbers. AS to the refresh December was up IIRC, Jan might have been down and we know feb was down so I don't know. Might have to give it more than 3 months. But that last post I made was saying all 3 cars had a bad month.

Originally Posted by Number 3

You guys are slightly missing the point. GM is trying make as much profit as possible with the Camaro. Having a higher per unit profit is a subset of that goal. Ultimate goal is high (plan or higher) sales volume AND highest margin.

Also ATP has nothing to do with margin. We assume because Camaro has a higher ATP it is more profitable. At a minimum GM has to pay for a LOT more retires per Camaro than Ford.

My speculation, without the data, is Ford's ATP is lower because they sell more 4 and 6 cylinder cars than GM does. Assume for example that GM sold more base base Camaros to match Fords volume. The Camaro ATP would drop significantly.

Also, not selling to rental fleets is much more than having a higher ATP. It protects residual values leading to better lease prices and better trade ins. This is the reason GM brought the Captiva to the US a few years back. It only sold to rental fleets so they could keep Equinox out of fleet sales.

Thank you for the insight on ATP. I mentioned in another thread that without knowing profit is kind of only half a stat. Yeah it might sell for alot more but if it makes less profit per unit (which we do not know) then does it matter? Example

Widget A sells for $100 (ATP)
Widget B sells for $70

Widget A costs 80
Widget B Costs 40

In this case, B makes more per unit despite selling for less. The missing variable when it comes to the cars is we don't know the profit per car.

Originally Posted by motorhead

That's sad. They have no issues offering huge incentives on trucks. Instead of offing 10 to 12 grand off a truck these days why dont they just charge what a truck is actually worth?
Guess people need to see that big discount to make themselves feel good. Ford and Toyota dont seem to play that game as much as Chevy and Ram do. How do they manage to sell trucks?

You can get huge chunks off Ford's IMO they just don't seem to advertise it as much as GM does with the massive $ off

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

CR only polls CR subscribers. Do you know the demographic that subscribes to CR? How many of them are gearheads or performance guru's? As the data shows, more retail buyers are choosing Camaro and paying a premium for it.

JDPower reports actual trips to dealers for non-maintenance issues over the first three years of a model's life. Given the Camaro underwent a platform change in that span, not surprising it momentarily dropped a slot. Camaro has spent every year at the top since the 5th gen returned.

Like #3 said though, if we don't know the margins does the higher ATP really mean anything?

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Like #3 said though, if we don't know the margins does the higher ATP really mean anything?

Careful, you're treading on dangerous grounds...

You're on the verge of gutting the Camaro6 talking point about retail sales and ATP's.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Careful, you're treading on dangerous grounds...

You're on the verge of gutting the Camaro6 talking point about retail sales and ATP's.

LOL I have said it before while I do believe GM is probably making more per vehicle than Ford, we don't know. That's why I don't put much stock in the ATP's

[germanicus]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Given the US is the largest pony car market, domestic sales and revenue are rather important no? It is also the most competitive market for performance cars.

In volume, of a small market of sport coupes, sure. But volume isn’t the goal is it? What percentage of that revenue makes it back to Ford? More importantly how much profit is left after complying with each foreign country’s emission, safety, crash standards, local tariffs, import fees, shipping and transport costs?

At vastly different price points. Ford could only dream of the profits Porsche makes.

Can you share these “production vs sales metrics” GM provided you access to? Perhaps you know how much it costs GM to maintain their inventory vs profits lost by fleet dumping at bargain basement prices? It’s so simple - GM just doesn’t understand how to make money. If only they had your ideas and insight

A few points:

Read the article. It answers some of your questions. You obviously did not do so.

Production vs. sales metrics. The proof is in the massive overflow of units sitting unsold on lots. Not a difficult concept really. Lets see. Do you believe that factories just randomly pump out X number of units based on happenstance? It's based on various factors, but most importantly - projected sales. They expected/project a certain number of sales, and make that number of units. This is not rocket science. Do you think they overproduced (and therefore had to have firesales to move units at the end of the year) because they believed they WOULDN'T sell those units?

Also, please cut the strawman. Of course domestic sales are 'important'. Did I say otherwise? No, so don't be disingenuous and imply otherwise. Do you think that a full 25% of all Mustangs should be ignored because they are sold outside of the U.S.? Mustang outsold Camaro almost 10 to 1 in Europe in 2017.

So you don't think Mustangs outselling 911's in Germany is relevant? GM wouldn't want to be in the same position?

So do YOU have GM's profit figures for Camaro's (or Porsche's 911 profit margins)? Not ATP, Profit margins ....... No, you don't.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Like #3 said though, if we don't know the margins does the higher ATP really mean anything?

Recall this from Martinjlm? A recent GM retiree whose former position was tracking exactly this type of competitive date.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The general public would not be privy to actual profit numbers, but within the company, there are datasources that can be purchased that track ATP for ALL vehicles. We constantly monitored those. Camaro consistently had higher ATP than Mustang, Challenger, 370Z, etc and the profit margin hit the required targets.

The annual 20% off MSRP sales were typically near the end of the model year, designed to clear the lot for the next model year. Usually followed by 0% financing on past model year stock when the new model year product hits the lot. Neither of those things happened for the transition from '17 to '18.

When I bought my '17, I could have gotten 20% off of a '16 near the end of the 2016 MY. I waited. I could have bought a '16 SS Convertible that was on the lot with 0% financing, but the dealer couldn't do it with the '17 Fifty Vert that I came in to buy. Since I specifically wanted the H50 package, it had to be a '17. To make the deal they reduced the price on my car to the point where adding up all my discounts plus their price reduction, financed at 2% at a credit union I'd never heard of, made my payment exactly what it would have been if I had financed at 0% with my discounts but without their price reduction.

As long as Camaro hits its target... Camaro plus Cadillac carry the platform. One needs the other.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by germanicus

A few points:

Read the article. It answers some of your questions. You obviously did not do so.

Production vs. sales metrics. The proof is in the massive overflow of units sitting unsold on lots. Not a difficult concept really. Lets see. Do you believe that factories just randomly pump out X number of units based on happenstance? It's based on various factors, but most importantly - projected sales. They expected/project a certain number of sales, and make that number of units. This is not rocket science. Do you think they overproduced (and therefore had to have firesales to move units at the end of the year) because they believed they WOULDN'T sell those units?

Also, please cut the strawman. Of course domestic sales are 'important'. Did I say otherwise? No, so don't be disingenuous and imply otherwise. Do you think that a full 25% of all Mustangs should be ignored because they are sold outside of the U.S.? Mustang outsold Camaro almost 10 to 1 in Europe in 2017.

So you don't think Mustangs outselling 911's in Germany is relevant? GM wouldn't want to be in the same position?

So do YOU have GM's profit figures for Camaro's (or Porsche's 911 profit margins)? Not ATP, Profit margins ....... No, you don't.

How is this?

More Americans chose Camaro than Mustang or Challenger. They paid a +$5,700 premium in doing so.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Recall this from Martinjlm? A recent GM retiree whose former position was tracking exactly this type of competitive date.



As long as Camaro hits its target... Camaro plus Cadillac carry the platform. One needs the other.

That is valid, I am just trying to balance everything to make logical connections. Note he says, "tracks the ATP of all cars" and "the profit margin hit the required targets".

That to me doesn't mean its profit is higher than it's competition, that to me means internally the car is making a profit and they are hitting the mark they had internally. So while his data he mentioned said higher ATP's which we all know, the only thing he added was that the profit margin hit the required targets. Now if you want to take that as meaning the profit is higher than the competition go ahead, I personally don't see where you can draw that conclusion and be sure.

And again I have said, I do believe GM is making more BUT we do not know for sure.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is valid, I am just trying to balance everything to make logical connections. Note he says, "tracks the ATP of all cars" and "the profit margin hit the required targets".

That to me doesn't mean its profit is higher than it's competition, that to me means internally the car is making a profit and they are hitting the mark they had internally. So while his data he mentioned said higher ATP's which we all know, the only thing he added was that the profit margin hit the required targets. Now if you want to take that as meaning the profit is higher than the competition go ahead, I personally don't see where you can draw that conclusion and be sure.

And again I have said, I do believe GM is making more BUT we do not know for sure.

Gotcha. I never made a statement about one being more profitable than the other. I chimed because the discussion was about "people" not liking the Camaro. ...and the Camaro needs to be more like the Mustang or Challenger so "people" will like it better. Fact is more (American) "people" chose the Camaro in 2017 and paid an average of $5,700 more in doing so.

As reported, Chevy is hitting their profit target.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Gotcha. I never made a statement about one being more profitable than the other. I chimed because the discussion was about "people" not liking the Camaro. ...and the Camaro needs to be more like the Mustang or Challenger so "people" will like it better. Fact is more (American) "people" chose the Camaro in 2017 and paid an average of $5,700 more in doing so.

As reported, Chevy is hitting their profit target.

And that at the end of the day is one of the most important things. The car is making money.

And I totally see where your coming from.

My issue is when people start throwing around ATP like it is the end all stat, bc to me without other parts its kind of like missing the rest of the equation.

[Austinwj1]

Yeah but from what I’ve seen, Dodge has done quit a bit of marketing for the challenger. I don’t think I’ve seen one ad for the Camaro