[90503]

This whole "Sedan" thing has always bugged me. We are told for years that sedans are a dying segment, and see them disappear left and right. Cruze, gone...Impala, gone...etc.

Yet if it's an EV Sedan of some kind, Holy Cow! How awesome!...Can't wait to buy one! Celestiq, Wow!...Camaro sedan, yippee!

If a Camaro turns into a four door Sedan of some kind, EV or not, just count me out....

Out of this whole Brave New World of double-speak about most everything.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Camaro fanboy

25% vat here. plus another 25% tax on top of that..half goes to the government. same in uk.
pure greed.
plus 33% income tax we pay.
taxed to within an inch of our life here.
but. there's always a but.
we have.
free health care.
free schools
440 paternity days leave 80% of your salary.
if you get sick you'll get 80% of your salary up to about 50k usd a year.
free university.
a maximum of 600 usd a year property tax
we do at least get a lot for our money.

But wait……you are the model most Americans want. And by most I mean the few that think the government should pay for everything.

And its interesting you list all the taxes you pay and then like our left call all of the services “free”.

[redcoats1976]

the only americans that want those "free" services are the ones that are too lazy to work for them when they are not free.im glad im getting up in years because im not sure i want to see what this country will become by 2050...

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Camaro_QC

Not so bad.

One thing I don't like about most EVs is the lack of a grille.

IMO, Model S and Model X looked fine because they have a grille, or at least something that looks like it. Model 3 and Y look bad because they lack one, and so does most EVs that wants to show off it's an EV and doesn't have a grille.

I like Jaguar's approach of making the grille do something else if you don't need it for cooling.

I know this analogy might sound weird, but male nipples are functionally useless. You will still freak out a bit if you see a guy without them, though. Same thing here with EVs without grilles. Keep them.

That 4-door doesn't look too bad but yeah, more of a coupé guy myself.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by Camaro_QC

Not so bad.

The bottom Camaro looks like a 2006 Charger.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

...and that is because...? Are these even your words, that is, do you really think what those densely populated and mostly small European countries or Japan do should be emulated or copied here? Also don't forget that vehicle ownership is a vestige of actual freedom that many still appreciate, it isn't simply a means to get from point A to point B.

(Mind that I'm from Europe and used one of said public transport systems for decades—thrown together with other "great" ideas such as "free" healthcare and education, hello 60-70-80% overall tax burden.)

Yea I see your point. We can't really replicate those transportation systems here. but we could improve what we have. And that could be in the infrstructure bill plans. But the fact that humans are directly destroying our planet I think like masking and getting the shot some "Freedoms" will have to go by the wayside to ensure the survival of the human species as we know it.

[Silveradoss573]

Originally Posted by 90503

This whole "Sedan" thing has always bugged me. We are told for years that sedans are a dying segment, and see them disappear left and right. Cruze, gone...Impala, gone...etc.

Yet if it's an EV Sedan of some kind, Holy Cow! How awesome!...Can't wait to buy one! Celestiq, Wow!...Camaro sedan, yippee!

If a Camaro turns into a four door Sedan of some kind, EV or not, just count me out....

Out of this whole Brave New World of double-speak about most everything.

You know I brought up this exact point regarding sedans too and the only response I got from others was.......nothing/crickets lol.

They can take these EV freaking piles of junk along with a 4 door camaro "hideous looking thing btw" pictured above and just burn them to the ground as far as I'm concerned.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 90503

This whole "Sedan" thing has always bugged me. We are told for years that sedans are a dying segment, and see them disappear left and right. Cruze, gone...Impala, gone...etc.

Yet if it's an EV Sedan of some kind, Holy Cow! How awesome!...Can't wait to buy one! Celestiq, Wow!...Camaro sedan, yippee!

If a Camaro turns into a four door Sedan of some kind, EV or not, just count me out....

Out of this whole Brave New World of double-speak about most everything.

Originally Posted by Silveradoss573

You know I brought up this exact point regarding sedans too and the only response I got from others was.......nothing/crickets lol.

They can take these EV freaking piles of junk along with a 4 door camaro "hideous looking thing btw" pictured above and just burn them to the ground as far as I'm concerned.

Sedans are dying but not dead yet.

GM has only 3 left, Malibu, CT4 and CT5. I can't count the Spark, although it has 4 doors. People are simply moving to SUVs now.

Coupes? Dying even faster. Wagons? Never stood a chance although Buick tried one last time.

As I predicted earlier, GM will likely still need a sedan in the Chevy show room. And my guess is you'll see something to replace the Malibu only with batteries. Does that spawn a coupe with the Camaro name? Perhaps.

But as the Camaro name has pretty much no value in the market today and hasn't been huge seller for many years (remember when GM made 400,000 Camaros and Firebird and needed 2 plants in Van Nuys and Norwood to build them?) I'm not sure the value of putting Camaro on a sedan making a ton of sense.

But this has been done many times. The Regal was a 2 door version of a sedan. Even the venerable GTR was a coupe version of a sedan for many years. Chevelle/Malibu? Same

And also as pointed out earlier, the global market will ultimately follow China and China wants EVs. It's by far the largest market and my guess is if import duties weren't so high GM would still have a CT6 and a LaCrosse here as both remain in production in China.....as are the Cruise and Verano.

And I'm still rooting for Fuel Cells. Not giving up on that yet.

https://www.gmhydrotec.com/product/p...otec/Home.html

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sedans are dying but not dead yet.
GM has only 3 left, Malibu, CT4 and CT5. I can't count the Spark, although it has 4 doors. People are simply moving to SUVs now.

Coupes? Dying even faster. Wagons? Never stood a chance although Buick tried one last time.

As I predicted earlier, GM will likely still need a sedan in the Chevy show room. And my guess is you'll see something to replace the Malibu only with batteries. Does that spawn a coupe with the Camaro name? Perhaps.

But as the Camaro name has pretty much no value in the market today and hasn't been huge seller for many years (remember when GM made 400,000 Camaros and Firebird and needed 2 plants in Van Nuys and Norwood to build them?) I'm not sure the value of putting Camaro on a sedan making a ton of sense.

But this has been done many times. The Regal was a 2 door version of a sedan. Even the venerable GTR was a coupe version of a sedan for many years. Chevelle/Malibu? Same

And also as pointed out earlier, the global market will ultimately follow China and China wants EVs. It's by far the largest market and my guess is if import duties weren't so high GM would still have a CT6 and a LaCrosse here as both remain in production in China.....as are the Cruise and Verano.

And I'm still rooting for Fuel Cells. Not giving up on that yet.

https://www.gmhydrotec.com/product/p...otec/Home.html

Well, if you’re willing to wait until 2024…

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Well, if you’re willing to wait until 2024…

Fuel Cells are currently in production in passenger cars (Hyundai, Honda and Toyota). Heavy trucks are coming soon enough.

https://news.navistar.com/2021-01-27...ruck-Ecosystem

Reading some articles that Hydrogen is going to be necessary for the manufacturing of steel to improve emissions that could make it much cheaper and more readily available.

IF that is the case, it will blow BEVs into the weeds. Fixes almost all EV concerns with time to charge and infrastructure. Only lacks the vibrating rotating bits so many people here want. Back in the "In your driveway" days, the Equinox was 30 minutes to refuel. That has apparently been improved to 5 minutes.

https://bellona.org/news/climate-cha...RI%20(H2%2DDRI).

As usual, time will tell. I feel like we are going to see a Beta/VHS, but my guess is if batteries continue to decrease in cost, EVs may be the winner. But if a FC and a much smaller battery wins?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Fuel Cells are currently in production in passenger cars (Hyundai, Honda and Toyota). Heavy trucks are coming soon enough.

https://news.navistar.com/2021-01-27...ruck-Ecosystem

Reading some articles that Hydrogen is going to be necessary for the manufacturing of steel to improve emissions that could make it much cheaper and more readily available.

IF that is the case, it will blow BEVs into the weeds. Fixes almost all EV concerns with time to charge and infrastructure. Only lacks the vibrating rotating bits so many people here want. Back in the "In your driveway" days, the Equinox was 30 minutes to refuel. That has apparently been improved to 5 minutes.

https://bellona.org/news/climate-cha...RI%20(H2%2DDRI).

As usual, time will tell. I feel like we are going to see a Beta/VHS, but my guess is if batteries continue to decrease in cost, EVs may be the winner. But if a FC and a much smaller battery wins?

The cars that are in production are purely for CARB compliance and credits. The Honda Clarity is being cancelled. In all fairness to Honda, that is because it will be replaced in a year or two with a product from the Honda / GM collaboration. For all of them, you have to live in a particular area to even qualify to lease one. Because otherwise you won’t find refueling.

Over the road trucks are going to be among the first to go FCEV. A number of OTR work on depot systems where companies that want to control their own refueling can install hydrogen refueling at specific depots and set their routes so that their trucks can travel depot-to-depot comfortably. The cost of hydrogen refueling stations is astronomical, but large truck fleets can afford to strategically place them in their depot systems and manage their routes to optimize costs.

As far as passenger vehicles are concerned, FCEV make sense for Japan and S. Korea. This is why Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai/Kia are more into it than other brands. It can work in their home markets. Both are pretty much land locked and don’t have to find a way to expand infrastructure across a land mass the size of the US. You will not find (or need to find) concentration of hydrogen refueling stations as plentiful as gas stations in the US. So Japan (an island) and S. Korea (a peninsula with strong incentive to NOT travel north) can get by with a handful of hydrogen refueling stations. For the US, if you think there aren’t enough EV charging stations, just wait until you have to find a hydrogen station in Montana.

Electric vehicle: I have an infrastructure problem.

Fuel Cell vehicle: Hold my beer.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The cars that are in production are purely for CARB compliance and credits. The Honda Clarity is being cancelled. In all fairness to Honda, that is because it will be replaced in a year or two with a product from the Honda / GM collaboration. For all of them, you have to live in a particular area to even qualify to lease one. Because otherwise you won’t find refueling.

Over the road trucks are going to be among the first to go FCEV. A number of OTR work on depot systems where companies that want to control their own refueling can install hydrogen refueling at specific depots and set their routes so that their trucks can travel depot-to-depot comfortably. The cost of hydrogen refueling stations is astronomical, but large truck fleets can afford to strategically place them in their depot systems and manage their routes to optimize costs.

As far as passenger vehicles are concerned, FCEV make sense for Japan and S. Korea. This is why Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai/Kia are more into. It than other brands. It can work in their home markets. Both are pretty much land locked and don’t have to find a way to expand infrastructure across a land mass the size of the US. You will not find (or need to find) concentration of hydrogen refueling stations as plentiful as gas stations in the US. So Japan (and island) and S. Korea (a peninsula with strong incentive to NOT travel north) can get by with a handful of hydrogen refueling stations. For the US, if you think there aren’t enough EV charging stations, just wait until you have to find a hydrogen station in Montana.

Electric vehicle: I have an infrastructure problem.

Fuel Cell vehicle: Hold my beer.

[Martinjlm]

For giggles and grins, I have a few seminars coming up in the next couple weeks. This is a graphic that I'll be using in all of them. Since these are open-to-public events, I doubt I'll get in trouble posting this up...

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

For giggles and grins, I have a few seminars coming up in the next couple weeks. This is a graphic that I'll be using in all of them. Since these are open-to-public events, I doubt I'll get in trouble posting this up...

What's ICE start/stop? Is it that the stop/start the reduces engine idling?