[Jeb114]

Originally Posted by bignaz

Ev's are a novelty I don't care what people say. Charging and battery tech is still years away from becoming viable for a large percentage of the us. I typically drive 40 miles to work each way. And every other month I do a 800 mile trip and I drive straight through and only make one stop for gas. I'm not sitting there for 45min + if there is not a line to charge. I can fill my tank in under 5 min so unless I can charge the car in under 15 min I won't even look at electric because it's inferior.


Ev's are years and years away from becoming a viable option for most of the drivers. They still have to build up the electric grid, then build a charging infastructor, Advance charging tech as well as advance battery tech. It's just not there and won't be for years.


Some places have a infastructor for charging. But your average person is not going to want to plan trips based on where chargers are located.



Scotty Kramer said that the Camaro is dead! It must be true because he's the guru of cars. I didn't watch the video YouTube thinks I should watch the idiot so I just seen his typical clickbate title.



Personally I'm happy they delayed the Camaro. The Camaro team has dropped the ball and the 2019 some people have to be removed from that team asap. I hope they are restructuring the team and planning for the gen 7 to be a true new generation and the next evaluation of the Camaro. I think when they came out and said they were listening to us it was a wake up call for them and I hope we see more options as well as more performance.



Also people crying about visibility need to put the phone down and drive. Visibility why not the best is not horrible. It's a Camaro not a mini van. I have zero problems with visability.

Got to get your head out of the sand most North American Cities are already EV Friendly. https://www.evgo.com/ There Moto is charge in Minutes not Hours.

[Silverado57]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You really need to talk to a Tesla owner.

...

I did speak to a few. I've also driven a friend's Chevy Bolt. The Bolt was fun and fast!

The biggest beef (aside from the price tag of the cars) is the lack of driving range. I agree that more and faster charging stations are coming, and the range will eventually improve. But bottom line, we're not there yet. When we are, I'll consider an all-electric car. Until then, fill 'er up.

PS... the infrastructure for EV repairs - especially Teslas - is wafer thin. Expect your Tesla to be tied up in the shop for a good long time if you ever have an accident. One of the many reasons I got the Camaro instead of a BMW 4 series convertible is the dealer network. Even in far-flung areas you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Chevy dealer. Not so much for BMW.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You really need to talk to a Tesla owner.

With the Supercharger infrastructure Tesla has in place, owners REGULARLY take long trips. A guy who used to work for me just got a Tesla Model 3. If you plan for a half hour snack or coffee break (Not a huge amount more than a gas stop for use with fill-up, potty break and a Diet Mountain Dew purchase) they can go long distances with no issues at all.

I’ve been saying this for YEARS. Americans put so much stock in the ability to pull off the highway for 2 - 10 minutes, fill up, and be back on the road. Reality is that typically, by the time everyone in the vehicle has gone for their potty break, bought a sandwich and a soda at the convenience store that provides MORE income for the station owner than the gas pumps do, and stretch their legs a bit, it’s more like 30 - 45 minutes. An EV with fast-charging capability could have added 30 - 60% of charge capacity in that time.

Originally Posted by Number 3

You and I would find that to be a bit restrictive, at least I know I do, but for the EV crowd, at least the Tesla crowd, they have that covered.

And yes, if you are an EV owner, you know where the other chargers are. Many hotels actually do have charging stations. You can plan an entire trip around it. It's just currently not as easy as pulling over at the next off ramp for a gas station. But for the EV enthusiasts these are no longer hurdles, it's part of the experience. And this is getting better every day.

Part of the issue it seems is that too many people are looking at the growth of EVs as an “either / or” proposition. It’s “and”. There will be EVs and there will be ICE powered vehicles with varying degrees of electrification. In my opinion, the limiting factor on volume potential for EVs is what I call the “7th Floor Sandy” problem. Sandy lives on the 7th floor of a building in a major metropolitan area that is EV friendly and has a Zero Emissions zone. How does Sandy’s EV get charged? Unless Sandy has a dedicated parking spot that supports overnight charging OR the metropolitan area supports charging of residents’ vehicles through implementation of a “charging parking lot” or the BMW concept I saw where street lamps double as charging stations, Sandy is SOL.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’ve been saying this for YEARS. Americans put so much stock in the ability to pull off the highway for 2 - 10 minutes, fill up, and be back on the road. Reality is that typically, by the time everyone in the vehicle has gone for their potty break, bought a sandwich and a soda at the convenience store that provides MORE income for the station owner than the gas pumps do, and stretch their legs a bit, it’s more like 30 - 45 minutes. An EV with fast-charging capability could have added 30 - 60% of charge capacity in that time.



Part of the issue it seems is that too many people are looking at the growth of EVs as an “either / or” proposition. It’s “and”. There will be EVs and there will be ICE powered vehicles with varying degrees of electrification. In my opinion, the limiting factor on volume potential for EVs is what I call the “7th Floor Sandy” problem. Sandy lives on the 7th floor of a building in a major metropolitan area that is EV friendly and has a Zero Emissions zone. How does Sandy’s EV get charged? Unless Sandy has a dedicated parking spot that supports overnight charging OR the metropolitan area supports charging of residents’ vehicles through implementation of a “charging parking lot” or the BMW concept I saw where street lamps double as charging stations, Sandy is SOL.

I love your problem statement.

So here is how 7th floor Sandy handles her EV charging.

Does Sandy have a gas pump at her high rise? No she likely doesn't. I've actually never lived anywhere were there was a fuel pump. Farmers do I know, so I've stayed at a residence that had a gas pump, just never lived there.

Sandy will charge the same way we gas our cars. At a charging station rather than a gas station.

There are so many people investing big $$$ to get the time down and the infrastructure up. Everyone compares this to where we are today. And today between Fiat, Ford and GM there is ONE EV, the Bolt. That's it. Tesla sells a whopping 250,000 cars and SUVs. Audi, MB, Jaguar are just launched or launching.

This becomes a chicken and the egg proposition. Do people move to EVs because they are equally convenient or do people buy because it's becoming more convenient? The mass exodus for ICEs is coming and it will be based on two things. It's the same price as an ICE and it's equally convenient as an ICE. And most people underestimate how much money is being invested to make those 2 things happen.

In the trucking industry alone, the maintenance costs for an EV are significantly lower than a diesel. Oil changes alone (40 quarts) 4 or 5 times per year. Transmissions? Gone. And this translates to automobiles on a smaller scale.

Do we need ICEs in the future? Sure. For a while at least. But if you can have Class 8 tractor good for 400 to 500 miles or range hauling 80,000 pounds, do you really think that you have to have a diesel or big gas V8 in a large pickup truck? That's a hard argument.

[SSport16]

You can keep your crap EV's...if cell phone manufacturers and laptop manufacturers have not figured out a lithium battery from swelling and exploding, then I would trust a mass amount of them on the bottom of a car to drive with!

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Glad you have no problem with visibility. But it's a problem. It's like saying I have food on my table so no one could be going hungry.

The major point on visibility isn't whether you have a problem. You bought one. But how many sales are they missing because those other people, me included DO find it to be a problem. Again a slight reminder, every single Camaro review written since 2016 comments on it. So even though you are ok, even good with it, it's a problem that is more than likely leading to at least some lost sales.

Nope not a minivan. But although some have actually posted that if it's ok for a McClaren to have poor visibility it's ok for the Camaro. People think that the Camaro is a hyper car or even a super car. Well in L4 and V6 trims, it needs to be a great coupe. Those buyers are much less willing to trade off visibility, trunk space and lift over height and rear seat room.

It's not about whether you like your Camaro, you clearly do including defending what is, from an engineers point of view, a major miss with the Gen6. It's whey doesn't the BEST PERFORMING CAMARO EVER not destroy the competition in sales. Answer that question without saying $$$.

Not discounting the issue of the visibility, but that didn't stop the 5th gen from selling like hot cakes. The media has been complaining about the visibility since 2010.

[samurai]

Originally Posted by mlee

Yup,,, you are correct. This whole thing has really been expected for a while.
No reason to move on to 7th Gen until we get a Z/28...

If you look at the current state of modern cars, I actually understand that GM (as Ford and Dodge) are not seeing the urge to upgrade to a completely new car. The only ideas current automarkers are having is making your whole dashboard one big display/touchscreen and giving you non reliable assisstent system that support looking at your smartphone while driving like an idiot instead of paying attention to the road. That's not really a reason to upgrade to a new platform, you can still add a lot of this stuff with another facelift.



So what would be the big benefit of Alpha 2 Camaro in about 2-3 years? All this extra stuff I mentioned which hardly are reasons to buy a new car? More track capabitlity? 6th Gen can still outperform the competition and sales kind of show that it's not all about performance for a lot of people. Fixing visbility issues? Yeah this would work, but building a completly new car your for that can hardly be worth it.



So I am totally fine with 7th Gen not already ready to let the mules drive down the road, but waiting 4-5 years to see what big upgrades they can really do in the time. Maybe prices for hybrid technology will drop by then, so they can build a V8 Hybrid with low 3s 0-60 times for the same money that an 2SS costs now.

[GroundhogSS]

I found out how some of those charge stations work.

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by GroundhogSS

I found out how some of those charge stations work.


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[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by bignaz

Ev's are a novelty I don't care what people say. Charging and battery tech is still years away from becoming viable for a large percentage of the us. I typically drive 40 miles to work each way. And every other month I do a 800 mile trip and I drive straight through and only make one stop for gas. I'm not sitting there for 45min + if there is not a line to charge. I can fill my tank in under 5 min so unless I can charge the car in under 15 min I won't even look at electric because it's inferior.


Ev's are years and years away from becoming a viable option for most of the drivers. They still have to build up the electric grid, then build a charging infastructor, Advance charging tech as well as advance battery tech. It's just not there and won't be for years.


Some places have a infastructor for charging. But your average person is not going to want to plan trips based on where chargers are located.



Scotty Kramer said that the Camaro is dead! It must be true because he's the guru of cars. I didn't watch the video YouTube thinks I should watch the idiot so I just seen his typical clickbate title.



Personally I'm happy they delayed the Camaro. The Camaro team has dropped the ball and the 2019 some people have to be removed from that team asap. I hope they are restructuring the team and planning for the gen 7 to be a true new generation and the next evaluation of the Camaro. I think when they came out and said they were listening to us it was a wake up call for them and I hope we see more options as well as more performance.



Also people crying about visibility need to put the phone down and drive. Visibility why not the best is not horrible. It's a Camaro not a mini van. I have zero problems with visability.

Tell that to GM's Mary Barra, she's ready to bet GM on mostly all Electric.

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Tell that to GM's Mary Barra, she's ready to bet GM on mostly all Electric.

This "all electric" nonsense is a horrible decision. Really dumb.

[Doc]

Yeah, the big problem nobody seems to be addressing, or they're just not willing to talk about it, is the fact that nothing is free. Where is all this electricity going to come from? They're adding charging stations, but are they adding power generation plants? As Number 3 mentioned, what about the used batteries? What plans are in place to deal with those? What happens in an accident? You can't spray water on an electric car fire. Are all the emergency response vehicles being equipped with the correct foams to deal with this? What's that going to cost? There's an industry to invest in.

A couple of other issues are, what about the toxicity of manufacturing the batteries to begin with? Something I haven't seen brought up are the EMF issues. I was reading an article about a guy who was showing off his new Tesla to a friend of his who was an electrician, and just happened to have his gear bag with him that had his EMF detector. It started going off big-time and when he put it near the center console, the reading was so high the needle was pegged. What kind of shielding is there, if any? What about long-term exposure to EMF inside the cars? It's a well-known fact that people who have lived near high-power lines, over time experience high incidents of cancer and other issues.

As the emotional dramatic environmentalists always have, the rely on emotion rather than logic and reason. They wanted us to switch to plastic to "save the trees". Now it seems the plastic is killing ocean wildlife so they want to ban plastic and go back to paper bags. How much cheaper and better would it have been if people hadn't listened to them in the first place?

Supposedly electricity is going to save the planet from the evils of the internal combustion engine, but what you want to bet the cost of electricity is going to wind up being more than the cost of gas? More costly to produce, more costly to service, more costly to deal with the environmental issues.

We have no idea of the longevity of these electric systems; the motors, batteries and related systems. Not to mention the computers that control all of it. Just look at the history of the computer industry to see where all that might be going.

At what point do we start having to be the ones who have to adjust to and serve technology rather than the other way around? Nothing is free. There's always a cost of some kind involved.

[FH212]

Originally Posted by Doc

Yeah, the big problem nobody seems to be addressing, or they're just not willing to talk about it, is the fact that nothing is free. Where is all this electricity going to come from? They're adding charging stations, but are they adding power generation plants? As Number 3 mentioned, what about the used batteries? What plans are in place to deal with those? What happens in an accident? You can't spray water on an electric car fire. Are all the emergency response vehicles being equipped with the correct foams to deal with this? What's that going to cost? There's an industry to invest in.

A couple of other issues are, what about the toxicity of manufacturing the batteries to begin with? Something I haven't seen brought up are the EMF issues. I was reading an article about a guy who was showing off his new Tesla to a friend of his who was an electrician, and just happened to have his gear bag with him that had his EMF detector. It started going off big-time and when he put it near the center console, the reading was so high the needle was pegged. What kind of shielding is there, if any? What about long-term exposure to EMF inside the cars? It's a well-known fact that people who have lived near high-power lines, over time experience high incidents of cancer and other issues.

As the emotional dramatic environmentalists always have, the rely on emotion rather than logic and reason. They wanted us to switch to plastic to "save the trees". Now it seems the plastic is killing ocean wildlife so they want to ban plastic and go back to paper bags. How much cheaper and better would it have been if people hadn't listened to them in the first place?

Supposedly electricity is going to save the planet from the evils of the internal combustion engine, but what you want to bet the cost of electricity is going to wind up being more than the cost of gas? More costly to produce, more costly to service, more costly to deal with the environmental issues.

We have no idea of the longevity of these electric systems; the motors, batteries and related systems. Not to mention the computers that control all of it. Just look at the history of the computer industry to see where all that might be going.

At what point do we start having to be the ones who have to adjust to and serve technology rather than the other way around? Nothing is free. There's always a cost of some kind involved.

Great great points. I agree on ALL of it! Excellent post!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Doc

Yeah, the big problem nobody seems to be addressing, or they're just not willing to talk about it, is the fact that nothing is free. Where is all this electricity going to come from? They're adding charging stations, but are they adding power generation plants? As Number 3 mentioned, what about the used batteries? What plans are in place to deal with those? What happens in an accident? You can't spray water on an electric car fire. Are all the emergency response vehicles being equipped with the correct foams to deal with this? What's that going to cost? There's an industry to invest in.

A couple of other issues are, what about the toxicity of manufacturing the batteries to begin with? Something I haven't seen brought up are the EMF issues. I was reading an article about a guy who was showing off his new Tesla to a friend of his who was an electrician, and just happened to have his gear bag with him that had his EMF detector. It started going off big-time and when he put it near the center console, the reading was so high the needle was pegged. What kind of shielding is there, if any? What about long-term exposure to EMF inside the cars? It's a well-known fact that people who have lived near high-power lines, over time experience high incidents of cancer and other issues.

As the emotional dramatic environmentalists always have, the rely on emotion rather than logic and reason. They wanted us to switch to plastic to "save the trees". Now it seems the plastic is killing ocean wildlife so they want to ban plastic and go back to paper bags. How much cheaper and better would it have been if people hadn't listened to them in the first place?

Supposedly electricity is going to save the planet from the evils of the internal combustion engine, but what you want to bet the cost of electricity is going to wind up being more than the cost of gas? More costly to produce, more costly to service, more costly to deal with the environmental issues.

We have no idea of the longevity of these electric systems; the motors, batteries and related systems. Not to mention the computers that control all of it. Just look at the history of the computer industry to see where all that might be going.

At what point do we start having to be the ones who have to adjust to and serve technology rather than the other way around? Nothing is free. There's always a cost of some kind involved.

The problem isn't paper or plastic or electric engines or gasoline engines...the problem is overpopulation. At some point, independent travel will be gone and we will all be using mass transit. And even then that won't solve the problem. I hate to sound bleak. But eventually Humans will tax this planet to the point that it will not be able to sustain life at all. I'll be long gone before that happens thank God.