[Mountain]

Originally Posted by samurai

No, definitely not. The steering wheel in prerefresh models is horrible with very thin and cheap leather. Every Mustang driver I know swapped the wheel because of the cheap materials.
The seats are very cheap too and already are pretty wavy from the factory and start to crumble within 1 or 2 years of driving the car.



Yeah the Camaro has a bit more hardplastic on the dashboard, but on the important parts (armrest, steering wheel, seats, basically everything you actually have to touch) the quality of the Camaro is far ahead.



On a sidenote, the body alignment of S550 Mustangs is laughable, even with the refresh. I saw of lot Mustangs with horrible gaps under the headlights (you could even put your fingers in, so big were some gaps), rear fenders that don't match the body at the rearpanel, crooked rear windows, misaligned hoods, etc.

This.

I find it hilarious when car reviewers go over the interior, touching everything and comment on the hard or soft-touch materials in areas that you will, in all utter-complete honestly, never-ever touch unless you are cleaning the car. If I was a car company, I'd make all that stuff nice-looking plastic, too, unless it was a very high-level/high-price car.

Complain of plastic in areas that really don't matter, than also complain on vehicle weight...

The Camaro, 1SS or 2SS vs GT or GT Premium, has the same or more hard plastic (trim dependent). However, the Camaro has soft-touch, QUALITY materials where it needs it. The Mustang interior materials, plastic included, sans the GT350, looks and feels just plain CHEAP.

Look at the parting lines and injection points on the plastics: you can see them all. Fell/look at the part edges: many are sharp and very thin. Look at the coloration: some parts are not homogeneous. The pleather? It all feels like it's engineered to 3/36 and not a year or mile more.

[Blackbean]

To be more correct , yes , it's the lack of a lower sill that limits my trunk space. The volume is quite adequate . Let's just call it " a top loader ."

I love the car to be sure :
2010 2SS RS auto.
2011 2SS RS 6 spd.
2016 2SS auto.
2018 1SS 1LE


No I'm not showing the tattoo

[Fraxum]

Both are great performance cars and Ford has invested a lot of cash improving it over the last few years made the V8 performance at least a draw and maybe a little more. If I was buying a NA V8 version I would definitely look at both. Ford still didn't put in the track level cooling that even a standard SS has. But only a very low percentage of buyers care about that.

So congratulations Ford, you gave us more choices! And Chevy if you do build another version of the Camaro please pay attention to the visibility.

But at the moment Ford has nothing to compare with a ZL1. We shall see.....

[00 Trans Ram]

Originally Posted by JT58

I have owned both and each has their strong points. While I personally feel that the Camaro has superior looks and will smoke a Mustang on and off the track.......the Mustang is easier to drive day to day for work or long trips. While you get used to the visibility in the Camaro and feel it is fine, you do not realize the difference until you drive the Camaro for a while- day to day, then the Mustang day to day. In a direct comparison the Mustang has better visibility to see- especially on the highway. I did not buy a Mustang due to this though- and it would not be a reason to change cars- it was because of the A8 shuddering issue and was my first experience with an automatic in a car and it was not a good one.

So, I have a question, since you addressed the "visibility". I have my mirrors adjusted so that I can see always see a person walking around the car, at a distance of 5'. When passing or being passed, I can see the rear of a car on the side of me in my side mirror at the same time I can see the front of it out my window. In other words, I have absolutely zero blind spots.

Now, I also drive my wife's Disco Sport. Yeah, it has "better visibility". Of things like trees and clouds.

My question is this - do you really get better visibility of the things you need to see - like roads, cars, etc.? Or is it just more vertical visibility of things that you don't need to see?

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by joe944

I don't really see the problem. Those kinds of lists usually address cars that are new or have had major changes.

The camaro was on it for 3 years, which already says a lot. I doubt it will be influencing anyone's decision on which car they want to buy.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with both your points.

We're specifically talking about the Car And Driver 10 Best list here. So forget about other lists. The C&D 10 best annual list has been around for some 35 years I think. This list does not focus on new cars or changed cars. Some cars have been on the list more than 20 times - Honda Accord for one. Also, until a few years ago, the BMW 3 series was on the list almost every year, but recently was replaced with the 2 Series.

And how do you know the list doesn't influence anyone's car buying decision? I would say it most definitely does influence decisions from the general car-buying public. For years, auto manufacturers have proudly stated in their ads that their car made the Car And Driver 10 Best list for X years running. Why would they spend advertising money like that if no one cared about the list?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 00 Trans Ram

So, I have a question, since you addressed the "visibility". I have my mirrors adjusted so that I can see always see a person walking around the car, at a distance of 5'. When passing or being passed, I can see the rear of a car on the side of me in my side mirror at the same time I can see the front of it out my window. In other words, I have absolutely zero blind spots.

Now, I also drive my wife's Disco Sport. Yeah, it has "better visibility". Of things like trees and clouds.

My question is this - do you really get better visibility of the things you need to see - like roads, cars, etc.? Or is it just more vertical visibility of things that you don't need to see?

I've daily driven a gen6 since May, 2016 so I'm completely acclimated to its visibility.

The only true visibility issue is knowing where the curb is when turning right in tight situations. I overcompensate to make sure the the right rear tire is clear.

Driving in heavy traffic, parallel parking, etc are not an issue. I can literally zig, zag in heavy traffic with zero issues.

More vertical roof height would make it airy but do nothing for "viability". The high belt line is more of a hindrance, IMO.

[DaveC113]

Visibility is an issue, moreso for some than others. It varies...

I've found that you really need to look and plan ahead a bit more when maneuvering at slow speeds around curbs. It also takes some time to get a proper spatial feel for the car, at first it feels large as it's hard to place exactly where it is, especially the front end.

Also, if you're used to turning your head to check your blind spot that no longer works.

Some adapt to these things easily, some never really adapt.

[Silverado57]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Visibility is an issue, moreso for some than others. It varies...

...

I'm not 100% sure where the front of my 2017 Silverado is. I always have at least a foot of extra room, but don't have the guts to take advantage of it. I have the opposite problem with the Camaro. I think I have an extra foot of room, but I'm just about out of room. But I'm only 575 miles into the Camaro.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by samsumon

The trunk in this car is MASSIVE..... But the opening pretty much limits it to such small items sometimes!!

I wouldn't call it massive, but would call it adequate.

The opening is the issue. It's terrible and it does limit what I can use the car for
(for example, I can never take it to Hockey, have to limit the tools/etc I take with me to the track, etc).

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Silverado57

I'm not 100% sure where the front of my 2017 Silverado is. I always have at least a foot of extra room, but don't have the guts to take advantage of it. I have the opposite problem with the Camaro. I think I have an extra foot of room, but I'm just about out of room. But I'm only 575 miles into the Camaro.

Yeah, I was always parking with the front end 3 ft from where I wanted it at first. Better than hitting something but annoying. Now I have almost 2k miles and it's much better, I can place the front end about 1 ft from where I want it. Backing into parking spots is sometimes easier since you have the camera.

The long doors also make parking a PITA sometimes. Can't get close to another car or you can't open the door far enough to get out easily!

[HighIron]

Originally Posted by 00 Trans Ram

My question is this - do you really get better visibility of the things you need to see - like roads, cars, etc.? Or is it just more vertical visibility of things that you don't need to see?

Bingo. The present visibility is adequate for the task at hand, and if one drives in a manner more vigilant and situationally aware, it's more than adequate. A car doesn't have to be a fishbowl to have good visibility.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 00 Trans Ram

So, I have a question, since you addressed the "visibility". I have my mirrors adjusted so that I can see always see a person walking around the car, at a distance of 5'. When passing or being passed, I can see the rear of a car on the side of me in my side mirror at the same time I can see the front of it out my window. In other words, I have absolutely zero blind spots.

Now, I also drive my wife's Disco Sport. Yeah, it has "better visibility". Of things like trees and clouds.

My question is this - do you really get better visibility of the things you need to see - like roads, cars, etc.? Or is it just more vertical visibility of things that you don't need to see?

I would bet that most people who use what is considered an unorthodox method of setting your sideview mirrors have very little if any problem with traffic visibility in a Camaro. I am one of those people and it seems that you probably are also. I have yet to convince any of my family members to set their mirrors that way. My wife grudgingly admits that it allows for best use of the mirrors, but then quickly replies that it "just doesn't feel right".

Originally Posted by hotlap

I've daily driven a gen6 since May, 2016 so I'm completely acclimated to its visibility.

The only true visibility issue is knowing where the curb is when turning right in tight situations. I overcompensate to make sure the the right rear tire is clear.

Driving in heavy traffic, parallel parking, etc are not an issue. I can literally zig, zag in heavy traffic with zero issues.

More vertical roof height would make it airy but do nothing for "viability". The high belt line is more of a hindrance, IMO.

Totally agree about the roof height making it more airy, with no USABLE improvement in visibility. As for the right curb situations, yeah that's there. In my case I think it is due to the thickness of the A-pillar. Thing is, most GM cars and utilities share this hinderance. For me, it is more of an issue with my Cadillac SRX than it is with my Camaro.

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Visibility is an issue, moreso for some than others. It varies...

I've found that you really need to look and plan ahead a bit more when maneuvering at slow speeds around curbs. It also takes some time to get a proper spatial feel for the car, at first it feels large as it's hard to place exactly where it is, especially the front end.

Also, if you're used to turning your head to check your blind spot that no longer works.

Some adapt to these things easily, some never really adapt.

True. If you turn your head to look at what's at 4:00 and 8:00, you'll get an eyeful of C-pillar in the coupe and an eyeful of cloth in a vert. That's why it is more important in Camaro than most any other car I've driven to set your mirrors so that you can track following traffic as it transitions from your rearview mirror to your sideview mirror to your side window.

Originally Posted by Silverado57

I'm not 100% sure where the front of my 2017 Silverado is. I always have at least a foot of extra room, but don't have the guts to take advantage of it. I have the opposite problem with the Camaro. I think I have an extra foot of room, but I'm just about out of room. But I'm only 575 miles into the Camaro.

I'm 17k miles in and I still find myself overshooting parking lines.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I would bet that most people who use what is considered an unorthodox method of setting your sideview mirrors have very little if any problem with traffic visibility in a Camaro. I am one of those people and it seems that you probably are also. I have yet to convince any of my family members to set their mirrors that way. My wife grudgingly admits that it allows for best use of the mirrors, but then quickly replies that it "just doesn't feel right".

....

True. If you turn your head to look at what's at 4:00 and 8:00, you'll get an eyeful of C-pillar in the coupe and an eyeful of cloth in a vert. That's why it is more important in Camaro than most any other car I've driven to set your mirrors so that you can track following traffic as it transitions from your rearview mirror to your sideview mirror to your side window.

Camaro forced me to drive using the mirrors. The crazy thing is that I love it now and do so regardless of what I drive.

Turning my head to look behind me seems insane when I can see everything around me using the mirrors. The blind spot monitors are my safety net that gives confidence for fast maneuvers.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Camaro forced me to drive using the mirrors. The crazy thing is that I love it now and do so regardless of what I drive.

Turning my head to look behind me seems insane when I can see everything around me using the mirrors. The blind spot monitors are my safety net that gives confidence for fast maneuvers.

Yup!

One thing though... I can't believe ALL Camaros don't come with blind spot monitors. My $45k car doesn't have this feature while many econoboxes do. My last car had them and once you have them going back to without is not fun.