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Old 02-12-2013, 09:14 AM   #183
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You drive a Mustang Norm, of course you want the Camaro to be a 4 cylinder (just Kidding)
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:49 AM   #184
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You drive a Mustang Norm, of course you want the Camaro to be a 4 cylinder (just Kidding)
lol...Not just that, I don't know why he's willing to put up with all this grief of trying to explain everything...lol...Thanks Norm...lol
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:20 PM   #185
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The Chinese auto market is expected to triple by early next decade. Do you think the Chinese market going from 12 million per year to 30 million per year in the next 8 to 10 years won't impact the price of gas in the upward direction?

Our market and population is not growing, but China and India are. The number of people reaching the income level to buy cars in both countries is growing and fast. They will need gas.
Remember a few decades ago they would show video of Chinese cities and everyone was on bicycles? Now they are all in cars. While decades ago almost all Americans drove cars, but now we are being told bicycles are a much better alternative.

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These luddites will believe anything. We can tell them that the population in china is growing so rapidly that we need to stip mine the rockies to counter balance the mass of all the population on the opposite side of the Earth, otherwise the Earth will be in danger of tipping over.
Close. In 2010 Congressman Hank Johnson actually said he worried that stationing 6,000 more Marines on the island of Guam might cause it to "tip over and capsize". It's not just the luddites who are idiots, apparently it's the ones running the show as well.

Video of Hank Johnson asking about Guam tipping over:
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:01 PM   #186
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It's not just the luddites who are idiots, apparently it's the ones running the show as well.
That's EXACTLY who I was thinking of when I described the climate alarmists. These people are making decisions that affect our cars and our lives. Someone has to put a stop to this madness.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:48 PM   #187
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You're wrong.
Bold statement there.

Would you be able to state what you think I am wrong about?

Chinese auto market going to 30 million units? I've seen that from GM and from a Ford document discussing their global asperations?

That having the Chinese market and an Indian market growing while ours is not? Check the data. We are well below historical volumes and eve when it recovers fully we will be no more than where we've been years ago.

Wrong about the fact, yes fact, that Tar Sands require one more step to produce oil than simpl pumping out of the ground? Or that Shale requires another step again?

Just curious. I've been reading reports on this for years and just wondering how they are all wrong.

Or are you just being hopeful...................cuz even I hope all of this is wrong. It's just that without something strange happening a future world of cheap gas isn't likely in our future.........at least until no one uses gas anymore.

Now if in the future, China discovers oil all bets are off. They just haven't yet.

So how do you envision a world where oil is in much much higher demand but Canadien Tar Sands and Rocky Mountain shale somehow stay cheap?
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:07 PM   #188
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We can—actually, I'm sure we will—bicker about this for weeks. Please remember that offering a high-performance version of a 4-cylinder engine with forced induction does not require you to purchase it. This would be an option granted to those who want the unique styling of a Camaro above all else.

Start thinking outside of the Camaro-Mustang-Challenger rivalry. GM is winning this rivalry now, but GM doesn't have a product to compete with some of our low-displacement import competition. An Alpha Camaro will weigh less and therefore be a perfect fit for that market with the right pricing and engine options. Camaros will still be available in the traditional V6 and V8 arrangements for the long haul in order to compete with our traditional domestic rivals and to bring enthusiasts what we expect of our favorite car. Of course, not everyone is an enthusiast. Some of these people are just customers wanting something different, and I know a lot of people that want a cool car but don't care how much power it has. A version with a 4-cylinder turbo makes sense for them.

I did notice that a lot of arguments against any 4-cylinder turbo are coming from the V8 crowd. You guys are the heart and soul of high-performance GM drivers, but you are not the market for any 4-banger. Keep that in mind. If you want a 6thgen, then you'll be able to buy one with a V8, as usual. Think of the 4-cylinder model as a stepping stone to convert some ricer kids into real American performance machines. It starts with hot styling, and then they join Camaro5, and ultimately they're so enamored with how awesome Camaro enthusiasts are that they want to show up to a future Camaro5Fest with the V8 they've dreamed of owning since getting their 4-cylinder turbo. It's just something to consider.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:56 PM   #189
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Chinese auto market going to 30 million units? I've seen that from GM and from a Ford document discussing their global asperations?
At the rate we are going one day workers in Chinese factories will be driving in to work in new Camaros and Mustangs, while the parking lots in American factories will be filled only with EVs and bicycles.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:43 PM   #190
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We can—actually, I'm sure we will—bicker about this for weeks. Please remember that offering a high-performance version of a 4-cylinder engine with forced induction does not require you to purchase it. This would be an option granted to those who want the unique styling of a Camaro above all else.

Start thinking outside of the Camaro-Mustang-Challenger rivalry. GM is winning this rivalry now, but GM doesn't have a product to compete with some of our low-displacement import competition. An Alpha Camaro will weigh less and therefore be a perfect fit for that market with the right pricing and engine options. Camaros will still be available in the traditional V6 and V8 arrangements for the long haul in order to compete with our traditional domestic rivals and to bring enthusiasts what we expect of our favorite car. Of course, not everyone is an enthusiast. Some of these people are just customers wanting something different, and I know a lot of people that want a cool car but don't care how much power it has. A version with a 4-cylinder turbo makes sense for them.

I did notice that a lot of arguments against any 4-cylinder turbo are coming from the V8 crowd. You guys are the heart and soul of high-performance GM drivers, but you are not the market for any 4-banger. Keep that in mind. If you want a 6thgen, then you'll be able to buy one with a V8, as usual. Think of the 4-cylinder model as a stepping stone to convert some ricer kids into real American performance machines. It starts with hot styling, and then they join Camaro5, and ultimately they're so enamored with how awesome Camaro enthusiasts are that they want to show up to a future Camaro5Fest with the V8 they've dreamed of owning since getting their 4-cylinder turbo. It's just something to consider.
I don't mind 4cylinders by the way, I just don't like the idea of the Camaro becoming an econo-box, or even a Honda. If the doom Sayers are right then high gas prices and Govt regulations will turn these cars into sad sack watered down AMC Pacer versions of themselves. I'm old enough to remember the '70s and how Govt regs turned the best muscle cars in the world into catalytic converted 5.7L V8 145 HP having dishrags. I just don't want 2014 and '15 to be like '74 and '75! Where a 4cylinder turbo is the best we can hope for. They did it once, they may do it again. I swear by all that's holy, if they make a turbo 4 Z28 I'll never buy Camaro again.:(
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:22 AM   #191
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Turbo 4 > v6. The naturally aspirated v6 is on the way out in my opinion. The 4s can make more torque earlier and are more flexible as far as packaging is concerned. The v6 just doesn't make as much sense anymore. A 2.5l DI turbo could easily make as much power as the current v6 with more torque and a flatter power curve while getting better fuel efficiency when out of boost. It would be very cool also if GM were to bring back the stage kits they offered on the cobalts.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:36 AM   #192
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Turbo 4 > v6. The naturally aspirated v6 is on the way out in my opinion. The 4s can make more torque earlier and are more flexible as far as packaging is concerned. The v6 just doesn't make as much sense anymore. A 2.5l DI turbo could easily make as much power as the current v6 with more torque and a flatter power curve while getting better fuel efficiency when out of boost. It would be very cool also if GM were to bring back the stage kits they offered on the cobalts.
I really don't think Turbo 4rs are significantly more fuel efficient than NA V6s. And why compare FI V4s to NA V6s? Why not compare their torque and power to other FI engines? Turbo V6 or Turbo V8? Once you start boosting things it's just a matter of money anyway.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:15 AM   #193
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That having the Chinese market and an Indian market growing while ours is not? Check the data. We are well below historical volumes and eve when it recovers fully we will be no more than where we've been years ago.
There's a reason our market is not growing... and instead of bickering about what China and India are going to do to our prices, let's say you instead focus your attention on getting rid of the radicals with their boot on the throat of the car companies and oil companies and the economy in general?

If we were not de-industrializing the country with these crackpot ponzi energy schemes, Ford and GM would not be looking elsewhere for business.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:23 AM   #194
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I really don't think Turbo 4rs are significantly more fuel efficient than NA V6s. And why compare FI V4s to NA V6s? Why not compare their torque and power to other FI engines? Turbo V6 or Turbo V8? Once you start boosting things it's just a matter of money anyway.
A lightly boosted V6 will run circles around a lightly boosted I-4, so the I-4 will need more radical components to handle higher boost just to keep up with the V6. That means for the same level of performance you will shell out more money for the I-4, and have less headroom to tune it because it will already be pushed closer to the limit just to feel like a mildly boosted V6.

Why is it that everyone who claims how a boosted I-4 is so awesome acts like an I-4 is the only engine that gets better with boost?
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:35 AM   #195
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A lightly boosted V6 will run circles around a lightly boosted I-4, so the I-4 will need more radical components to handle higher boost just to keep up with the V6.
I call BS on this one. How much experience do you have with boosted 6 and 4 cylinders? Again, you miss the power:weight ratio.

I read your posts, and you do make people think, but on this, I call BS.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:40 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
I really don't think Turbo 4rs are significantly more fuel efficient than NA V6s. And why compare FI V4s to NA V6s? Why not compare their torque and power to other FI engines? Turbo V6 or Turbo V8? Once you start boosting things it's just a matter of money anyway.
You seem to have answered your own question. Unless for some reason cost isn't an important determining factor for GM.

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A lightly boosted V6 will run circles around a lightly boosted I-4, so the I-4 will need more radical components to handle higher boost just to keep up with the V6. That means for the same level of performance you will shell out more money for the I-4, and have less headroom to tune it because it will already be pushed closer to the limit just to feel like a mildly boosted V6.

Why is it that everyone who claims how a boosted I-4 is so awesome acts like an I-4 is the only engine that gets better with boost?
Radical components? Most of the factory turbo 4s run hypereutectic cast pistons just like a lot of the n/a engines, but with lower compression. Besides that the turbo 4 will have 2/3 the internal components of the 6 by definition. 2/3 the pistons, valves, rods, 1/2 the head(s), less exhaust piping, etc. GM's LNF has hypereutectic pistons and there are dozens of folks pushing 320+whp out of them with just a tune and exhaust. GM even offered upgrades to around 300hp that maintained the warranty. I don't see why anyone would compare turbo 4 and turbo 6 when it comes to factory equipment as cost difference is going to be significant. GM isn't going to compare an n/a v6 and a turbo v6 directly for the same trim level because the cost difference is too great, but a turbo 4 can cost about the same and offer better performance with packaging advantages. A turbo 4 like the LNF could replace the current v6 without adding cost while offering greater torque at an earlier rpm and higher efficiency.

Last edited by trademaster; 02-13-2013 at 04:09 AM.
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