[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

You know, a kid down the street from me walked by a few times when I had it in the driveway, right after I bought the car last year. He's maybe about 8-10 years old. The first time he told me what a cool car it is. And the second time he stopped to look I told him to come on up and have a seat in the driver's seat. His eyes got big, and he just looked around like he was in a trance.

When he got out I opened the hood and had him stand right there while I started it. I will tell you this kid reminded me of me when I was his age. He absolutely loves it. It was really cool to see.

I'm telling you this because when he gets old enough to be able to afford a new car, he most likely won't have a Camaro to choose from.

It won't be due to lack of interest. It will be due to stupidity from General Motors.

With all the degrees the people who make these decisions at General Motors have they completely miss the real world, where real people with emotion and spirit live every day. Not in some ivory tower full of pinheads in suits with spreadsheets and reports.

I would bet you don't work for a large corporation like GM, Petrol Head.

Those that do become (no better word for it) "institutionalized" over time and increasingly desensitized to what you referred to as the real world, thought patterns, passion and desires outside their big corporate mindset ("culture"). Even when starting out as the wide eyed kid in your personal story, over time the more knowledge one absorbs and the greater network one builds within, the wider this gap becomes.

With absolutely no disrespect intended, you can easily see this in responses from Number 3 and (to a much lesser extent) Martinjlm. Nothing wrong with them per se, they are very civil and approachable, it's just that there will rarely be an acknowledgment of a different perspective from someone who knows too much about how the game is played, so there's little point in arguing with them as an outsider.

Things like recalling the A8 and telling the truth about a design flaw (or anything, really) are simply more expensive propositions to corporate decision makers than not doing so, and customers can shove their complaints where the sun don't shine as far as they're concerned. There will be fewer complaints and lawsuits than the cost of a complete redesign or an A10 replacement or any other comprehensive action. Shareholders are happy for a while, and short term thinking wins over vision nearly every time. Working for a very large company myself, I struggle with it just as well.

To me, the 5th and 6th gen Camaro felt like a welcome and unexpected exception to this rule, with a lot of passion going into making it the best possible affordable sports car with fewer constraints, but now it seems to have been allowed to wither. It's okay as it's "only" a car and not something that really matters from an eternal perspective, but a bit sad nevertheless.

[Road_Warrior85]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Why did Challenger / Charger sales take off? Because for almost two years, Dodge offered $199/mo leases on 5.7L models in major markets. A lot of people showed up at the dealership to take advantage of that. A few no doubt got upsold into a ScatPack.

and how would anybody even have known about those lease options if the car's werent being advertised so well and placed in TV shows / Movies?

Whether bought or leased, people wanted the car's because they were seeing them in a flattering light based off marketing,


There's a lot of people (i know plenty personally) that WANTED a camaro, but since it is essentially a 2 seat car, they could not justify the purchase. You can't put car seats in a Camaro, and my friend's 7 year old can't sit in the back seat of mine because his legs are too short to bend down at the end of the seat, and too long to sit out straight. It is very awkward and uncomfortable for him and his mom to ride with me,
So if you can't have a Camaro and a kid less than 10 (or over 15), then you can't have a camaro unless you are able to have multiple cars. At that point, might as well get a Vette,
Instead, people get a challenger or charger because it has the real world usability that Chevy forgot people actually need.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior85

and how would anybody even have known about those lease options if the car's werent being advertised so well and placed in TV shows / Movies?

Whether bought or leased, people wanted the car's because they were seeing them in a flattering light based off marketing,


There's a lot of people (i know plenty personally) that WANTED a camaro, but since it is essentially a 2 seat car, they could not justify the purchase. You can't put car seats in a Camaro, and my friend's 7 year old can't sit in the back seat of mine because his legs are too short to bend down at the end of the seat, and too long to sit out straight. It is very awkward and uncomfortable for him and his mom to ride with me,
So if you can't have a Camaro and a kid less than 10 (or over 15), then you can't have a camaro unless you are able to have multiple cars. At that point, might as well get a Vette,
Instead, people get a challenger or charger because it has the real world usability that Chevy forgot people actually need.

That is a very good question. What I recall is that most of the time they were advertised as a local dealer network ad advertising the deal more than the car. Things like this... https://youtu.be/rC7rY6jSbb8

The point of the ad is the $222/mo lease for the Equinox. They tell you little about the car except that the guy and his wife like it.

In fact, the low cost leases have resulted in an issue that I complain about a lot on these pages. There are a lot of people in the Detroit area driving around with their 5.7L Hemi, probably their first V8 car, thinking they are now set up to whup the world. Since I drive around a lot with my top down, I have on dozens of occasions yelled over to the guy or gal sitting next to me, revving their engine, that unless it’s a ScatPack or a Hellcat, it’s not worth my time. More than once the response was “what’s a ScatPack?” That speaks volume. Because they could get a V8 Challenger for $199/mo, they bought a car they knew very little about.

Very true that anyone with thoughts of needing to use the rear seats regularly for anything mor than a package shelf is much better off with a Charger / Challenger. One of my best friends bought a Charger Daytona for just t reason. But now that his kids have their own cars and the Daytona has been stolen, he’s likely to be looking at Camaro and Mustang.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

I would bet you don't work for a large corporation like GM, Petrol Head.

Those that do become (no better word for it) "institutionalized" over time and increasingly desensitized to what you referred to as the real world, thought patterns, passion and desires outside their big corporate mindset ("culture"). Even when starting out as the wide eyed kid in your personal story, over time the more knowledge one absorbs and the greater network one builds within, the wider this gap becomes.

With absolutely no disrespect intended, you can easily see this in responses from Number 3 and (to a much lesser extent) Martinjlm. Nothing wrong with them per se, they are very civil and approachable, it's just that there will rarely be an acknowledgment of a different perspective from someone who knows too much about how the game is played, so there's little point in arguing with them as an outsider.

Things like recalling the A8 and telling the truth about a design flaw (or anything, really) are simply more expensive propositions to corporate decision makers than not doing so, and customers can shove their complaints where the sun don't shine as far as they're concerned. There will be fewer complaints and lawsuits than the cost of a complete redesign or an A10 replacement or any other comprehensive action. Shareholders are happy for a while, and short term thinking wins over vision nearly every time. Working for a very large company myself, I struggle with it just as well.

To me, the 5th and 6th gen Camaro felt like a welcome and unexpected exception to this rule, with a lot of passion going into making it the best possible affordable sports car with fewer constraints, but now it seems to have been allowed to wither. It's okay as it's "only" a car and not something that really matters from an eternal perspective, but a bit sad nevertheless.

No disrespect taken. Having been inside the company, especially in Product Planning, I just got to see up close how and why product decisions are made. Even the ones I don’t like <cough> 2003-09 Camaro<cough>. I try not to come off as a know-it-all, but I do realize that sometimes I may need to try a little harder.

[90503]

This ad has been running a lot here lately on tv....Noticeably omitted is the Camaro. Noticeably included is the never advertised on tv Corvette.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

This ad has been running a lot here lately on tv....Noticeably omitted is the Camaro. Noticeably included is the never advertised on tv Corvette.

Yeah, I see that one a lot too. Surprised the Corvette is in there, since they’re for all intents and purposes sold out for 2021. I’m guessing that’s their way of saying “we’re such a badass company, we made this beyotch. Doesn’t that make you want one of our trucks?”.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No disrespect taken. Having been inside the company, especially in Product Planning, I just got to see up close how and why product decisions are made. Even the ones I don’t like <cough> 2003-09 Camaro<cough>. I try not to come off as a know-it-all, but I do realize that sometimes I may need to try a little harder.

I never got that vibe from you. No need to apologize.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Well I’ve been out for almost 10 years. Was once a valued member of this sight for the inside perspective. Why things are the way they are. That has apparently become less valued as time goes navy as the internet experts know more and more. I’ve had people essentially say my wife is an idiot and fully discount her time as Marketing Manager for Corvette and having worked closely with the Camaro team. But glad I’m at least still considered approachable. Thanks for that.

Us internet experts are your wife’s customers. Perhaps listening to us just once and showing just a *slight* bit of respect and understanding would go a long way on a two way street.

But hey your wife has all the degrees and years of experience. WTF do we know?

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Us internet experts are your wife’s customers. Perhaps listening to us just once and showing just a *slight* bit of respect and understanding would go a long way on a two way street.

But hey your wife has all the degrees and years of experience. WTF do we know?

We know

CAMARO!

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

I would bet you don't work for a large corporation like GM, Petrol Head.

Those that do become (no better word for it) "institutionalized" over time and increasingly desensitized to what you referred to as the real world, thought patterns, passion and desires outside their big corporate mindset ("culture"). Even when starting out as the wide eyed kid in your personal story, over time the more knowledge one absorbs and the greater network one builds within, the wider this gap becomes.

With absolutely no disrespect intended, you can easily see this in responses from Number 3 and (to a much lesser extent) Martinjlm. Nothing wrong with them per se, they are very civil and approachable, it's just that there will rarely be an acknowledgment of a different perspective from someone who knows too much about how the game is played, so there's little point in arguing with them as an outsider.

Things like recalling the A8 and telling the truth about a design flaw (or anything, really) are simply more expensive propositions to corporate decision makers than not doing so, and customers can shove their complaints where the sun don't shine as far as they're concerned. There will be fewer complaints and lawsuits than the cost of a complete redesign or an A10 replacement or any other comprehensive action. Shareholders are happy for a while, and short term thinking wins over vision nearly every time. Working for a very large company myself, I struggle with it just as well.

To me, the 5th and 6th gen Camaro felt like a welcome and unexpected exception to this rule, with a lot of passion going into making it the best possible affordable sports car with fewer constraints, but now it seems to have been allowed to wither. It's okay as it's "only" a car and not something that really matters from an eternal perspective, but a bit sad nevertheless.

I’m in healthcare. Our focus is our patients needs, completely different thing from a business like GM. I get that.

Thing is the Camaro has always been about passion. Since 1967. Magazines like C&D and R&T are all passion - people shopping for beige soccer Mom mobiles aren’t subscribing to them for 30+ continuous years like me.

It’s like some people are saying GM should have never gotten into muscle cars to begin with.

How dare they do them best!!

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

The movie had a big impact, but the car itself was already a hit before the first movie.

GM debuted the prototype of what became the 5th gen Camaro at the 2006 Detroit International Autoshow with no public comment on whether they'd actually build it. That very prototype actually toured every Autoshow in North America that year to "gauge interest"...... it was off the charts. That summer after a ton of questions to other top brass at GM with the "no comment" response, Rick Wagoner said something to the effect of "yes we're in fact going to build the new Camaro - we're not brain dead"

The movie actually came out in 2007 - AFTER GM had toured the prototype and Wagoner let it out they're building it.

So yes the excitement for the car was already there before the movie. And would have been as strong even without the movie, as there were a ton of lifelong Camaro fans ( ) who didn't give a hoot about the movie who were THRILLED to see it's return.

If you think that the movie had no impact on sales of the car back then, you're out of the loop. Transformers played a huge role in getting non enthusiasts excited about the car. All of us car nuts were already aware and excited about it but it hit the masses with Transformers.

[detamble13]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior85

You can't put car seats in a Camaro, and my friend's 7 year old can't sit in the back seat of mine because his legs are too short to bend down at the end of the seat, and too long to sit out straight. It is very awkward and uncomfortable for him and his mom to ride with me,
So if you can't have a Camaro and a kid less than 10 (or over 15), then you can't have a camaro unless you are able to have multiple cars. At that point, might as well get a Vette,
Instead, people get a challenger or charger because it has the real world usability that Chevy forgot people actually need.

The Camaro would definitely be a hard sell as an only vehicle. However car seats do fit and both of my kids were in one in the back of my Camaro (5th gen so slightly larger). When they were out of the car seat and in a booster with their legs dangling and not touching we stacked some books under their feet haha. I understand most people don't want to deal with these work arounds but the dangling legs when in a booster is an issue for most vehicles.
I just hope GM doesn't try to appeal to those unwilling to make these compromises and slap a Camaro badge on a CUV. See Mach E aka Ford Karen aka Ford Hand Job

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Yeah, I see that one a lot too. Surprised the Corvette is in there, since they’re for all intents and purposes sold out for 2021. I’m guessing that’s their way of saying “we’re such a badass company, we made this beyotch. Doesn’t that make you want one of our trucks?”.

that was like a ford commercial from a year or so ago, started out with the Mustang driving aggressively then right into a promo for 0-60 on suvs and trucks

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I’m in healthcare. Our focus is our patients needs, completely different thing from a business like GM. I get that.

Thing is the Camaro has always been about passion. Since 1967. Magazines like C&D and R&T are all passion - people shopping for beige soccer Mom mobiles aren’t subscribing to them for 30+ continuous years like me.

It’s like some people are saying GM should have never gotten into muscle cars to begin with.

How dare they do them best!!

Devils advocate - I would say the reason the 6th gen sales is lacking is because they let to much passion into the project. They listened to the enthusiasts that wanted smaller, lighter, faster and moar powaaaa. They delivered 100% on that promise. Cars like the SSLE, ZL1, ZLE are insane and insane performance values. Problem is only 30-40% of Camaro buyers opt for a V-8. The shortcomings of the car that the 30% can ignore sometimes can not be ignored by the 60-70% that make up the bulk of the sales.

As much as no one around here wants to admit it, these cars need to some appeal to the masses. Mustang and Challenger have that, they have useable trunks, and more useable back seats and everyones favorite better visibility. I am not saying they need to be able to handle home depot runs, but it could have been better than it is without sacrificing performance.

GM IMO focused to much on what the smallest percentage of buyers wanted, and it backfired on them. The Camaro as a performance car is superior to anything in its class. It is truly a world class performance car. Problem is its a bad coupe compared to its rivals and when 60-70% of the people that buy these cars don't buy performance trims...that performance benefit isn't going to be able to sway them

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by shaffe

that was like a ford commercial from a year or so ago, started out with the Mustang driving aggressively then right into a promo for 0-60 on suvs and trucks



Devils advocate - I would say the reason the 6th gen sales is lacking is because they let to much passion into the project. They listened to the enthusiasts that wanted smaller, lighter, faster and moar powaaaa. They delivered 100% on that promise. Cars like the SSLE, ZL1, ZLE are insane and insane performance values. Problem is only 30-40% of Camaro buyers opt for a V-8. The shortcomings of the car that the 30% can ignore sometimes can not be ignored by the 60-70% that make up the bulk of the sales.

As much as no one around here wants to admit it, these cars need to some appeal to the masses. Mustang and Challenger have that, they have useable trunks, and more useable back seats and everyones favorite better visibility. I am not saying they need to be able to handle home depot runs, but it could have been better than it is without sacrificing performance.

GM IMO focused to much on what the smallest percentage of buyers wanted, and it backfired on them. The Camaro as a performance car is superior to anything in its class. It is truly a world class performance car. Problem is its a bad coupe compared to its rivals and when 60-70% of the people that buy these cars don't buy performance trims...that performance benefit isn't going to be able to sway them

Going on your post, playing DA

One of the other big issues is the lack of any real interior storage. Now I do not need 15 cubbies and 12 cupholders like my truck, but at least a place to sit my phone would be nice. Not to mention the tiny storage they give is about a PITA to even access.