[detltu]

I'm with the GT350 owners on this. Car going into limp mode in a 20 minute HPDE session is not acceptable for any sports or performance car. I expect that out of a GT or SS even if they don't have the PP/1LE package. Chevy made the same mistake with the Z06. I expect the ZL1 (without the 1LE package) to perform fine on the track without going into limp mode. I will be very disappointed if we start getting reports of ZL1s going into limp mode. Ford got the message when they made the track pack the base car for the next year. They should have done that from the beginning.

Whether it will hold up in court is another matter. In the court of my personal opinion though it's pretty clear.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by detltu

I'm with the GT350 owners on this. Car going into limp mode in a 20 minute HPDE session is not acceptable for any sports or performance car. I expect that out of a GT or SS even if they don't have the PP/1LE package. Chevy made the same mistake with the Z06. I expect the ZL1 (without the 1LE package) to perform fine on the track without going into limp mode. I will be very disappointed if we start getting reports of ZL1s going into limp mode. Ford got the message when they made the track pack the base car for the next year. They should have done that from the beginning.

Whether it will hold up in court is another matter. In the court of my personal opinion though it's pretty clear.

No its not. In a court of public opinion, it's clear that you are a dummy (the purchaser of the car, not you YOU) if you expect a car with no coolers to perform in any capacity at a track. It's stupid to have thought otherwise. If they wanted to TRACK their car, they should have bought a TRACK PACK car. Very simple. These people chose the technology (or base) and expected track pack performance.

It was pretty clear from the get go which one would be track worthy, and which would not.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by detltu

I'm with the GT350 owners on this. Car going into limp mode in a 20 minute HPDE session is not acceptable for any sports or performance car. I expect that out of a GT or SS even if they don't have the PP/1LE package. Chevy made the same mistake with the Z06. I expect the ZL1 (without the 1LE package) to perform fine on the track without going into limp mode. I will be very disappointed if we start getting reports of ZL1s going into limp mode. Ford got the message when they made the track pack the base car for the next year. They should have done that from the beginning.

Whether it will hold up in court is another matter. In the court of my personal opinion though it's pretty clear.

Difference between the GT350 & the ZL1 (or the SS for that mater): GM intended the regular car to be track capable, knowing that most would never use it as such.

Ford did NOT intend the base GT350 to be track capable, knowing that most people would never take it to a track. However, they knew that some would track it and therefore offered a track package with those specific buyers in mind.

The people suing Ford knowingly bought the car without getting the track package and then proceeded to take it to a track anyways. That is on them.

Think of it like this: on pickup trucks, there exist towing packages that can increase the tow rating of the truck by several thousand pounds. Whose fault is it when someone takes a half ton truck that isn't so equipped, hooks up a 12,000 lb trailer (instead of the 8500 lbs they should have), and cooks the transmission or causes some other failure. The manufacturer for not giving every single truck the maximum capacity, or the owner for exceeding the known capabilities of his truck?

Or what about suing because your ass gets cold in the winter and your car didn't come with heated leather seats, only basic cloth ones. Sure, you could have ticked the option box and gotten the upgrade but when you ordered you had no idea that you were ever going want that capability. The manufacturer knew the car would get cold in the winter, but they knowingly sold cars without heated seats. How dare they!

In my opinion, both of those scenarios make just as much sense as suing because your non-track pack GT350 was not track capable. How much more obvious does it need to be? Put it in the owners manual? Oh, right they pretty much did:

Originally Posted by Ford GT350 Supplemental Manual Page 28

Operating at High Speeds and on Track
Days
Your vehicle is capable of sustained high
speeds and track day driving if equipped
with powertrain coolers (Track, R model).

Note: Obey all traffic laws and only operate
your vehicle at locations designed to do so
safely.
Before operating your vehicle at high
speeds, follow these guidelines.
• Verify your tires have the correct tire
pressures (see Tires in this
supplement).
• Inspect wheels and tires for wear and
damage. Replace any damaged wheels
or tires.
• Do not operate your vehicle at high
speeds with more than two passengers
or while carrying cargo.
• For sustained high speeds or track day
use with a Base or Tech model, we
recommend that transmission and
differential coolers are added. Your
vehicle has electronic controls to
reduce power and/or limit RPM to
reduce powertrain temperatures if
required.

https://owner.ford.com/tools/account...tang&year=2016

So, they outright say that the GT350 needs coolers for track days and sustained high speed driving (coolers that come with the track pack and R model). And, they warn that it will go into limp mode if it starts to overheat.

Sounds like none of the folks suing bothered to spend a couple minutes reading their manual.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Difference between the GT350 & the ZL1 (or the SS for that mater): GM intended the regular car to be track capable, knowing that most would never use it as such.

Ford did NOT intend the base GT350 to be track capable, knowing that most people would never take it to a track. However, they knew that some would track it and therefore offered a track package with those specific buyers in mind.

The people suing Ford knowingly bought the car without getting the track package and then proceeded to take it to a track anyways. That is on them.

Think of it like this: on pickup trucks, there exist towing packages that can increase the tow rating of the truck by several thousand pounds. Whose fault is it when someone takes a half ton truck that isn't so equipped, hooks up a 12,000 lb trailer (instead of the 8500 lbs they should have), and cooks the transmission or causes some other failure. The manufacturer for not giving every single truck the maximum capacity, or the owner for exceeding the known capabilities of his truck?

Or what about suing because your ass gets cold in the winter and your car didn't come with heated leather seats, only basic cloth ones. Sure, you could have ticked the option box and gotten the upgrade but when you ordered you had no idea that you were ever going want that capability. The manufacturer knew the car would get cold in the winter, but they knowingly sold cars without heated seats. How dare they!

In my opinion, both of those scenarios make just as much sense as suing because your non-track pack GT350 was not track capable. How much more obvious does it need to be? Put it in the owners manual? Oh, right they pretty much did:

https://owner.ford.com/tools/account...tang&year=2016

So, they outright say that the GT350 needs coolers for track days and sustained high speed driving (coolers that come with the track pack and R model). And, they warn that it will go into limp mode if it starts to overheat.

Sounds like none of the folks suing bothered to spend a couple minutes reading their manual.

^And that's the waaaaay...the news goes.

I imagine that this lawsuit was more from lawyers, thinking they can make a quick easy buck, than the owners themselves.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

No its not. In a court of public opinion, it's clear that you are a dummy (the purchaser of the car, not you YOU) if you expect a car with no coolers to perform in any capacity at a track. It's stupid to have thought otherwise. If they wanted to TRACK their car, they should have bought a TRACK PACK car. Very simple. These people chose the technology (or base) and expected track pack performance.

It was pretty clear from the get go which one would be track worthy, and which would not.

This point was clear to the Camaro5 community and I'd bet my house I can find the lack of coolers being criticized before the first Tech cars were produced. The non-track car, track car. Even a base Camaro SS comes with three radiators oil/trans/diff cooler and Chevy's assurance that you can take it to the track and burn a full tank of gas without overheating.

It was a poor decision on Ford's part gave them their $49,900 base MSRP headline that was quote by fans and press whenever discussing the TP or R performance. That's where the water got muddy.

Edit: there is a thread on Camaro6 regarding the inability to even register a reading on the transmission temp gauge of a 1LE. The SS has the same cooling and even with the A8, I need to aggressively manual shift up and down to register heat on the gauge during street use.

[ChefBorOzzy]

This is a clear case of Ford trying to get a great price point and skimp out with what the car needs, especially one designated as a track car.. Let's be honest, the 350 was looked at as a track car whether you get the R or not. They all should have had the cooling without having to option it out, but they obviously wouldn't have been able to hit that price point all the Ford fanboys were bragging about.

GT500 also needed a track package. Mustang GT is also gimped from the factory. Just seems to be the way Ford does things. I still don't think that this lawsuit will accomplish anything for these people.

I recall when the blue oval boys talked about how the 1LE would cost as much as GT350 and not be as good.. 1LE costs 14k dollars less. That's huge. Besides the unique engine, the GT350 sounds like a ripoff.

[90503]

The lawsuit depends on believing marketing hype as being some sort of guarantee....

You get what you pay for usually stands true....and that includes coolers for the track....

Does everyone who eats Wheaties suddenly become just like the athlete on the box?....I think not...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

This is a clear case of Ford trying to get a great price point and skimp out with what the car needs, especially one designated as a track car.. Let's be honest, the 350 was looked at as a track car whether you get the R or not. They all should have had the cooling without having to option it out, but they obviously wouldn't have been able to hit that price point all the Ford fanboys were bragging about.

GT500 also needed a track package. Mustang GT is also gimped from the factory. Just seems to be the way Ford does things. I still don't think that this lawsuit will accomplish anything for these people.

I recall when the blue oval boys talked about how the 1LE would cost as much as GT350 and not be as good.. 1LE costs 14k dollars less. That's huge. Besides the unique engine, the GT350 sounds like a ripoff.

Yeah The base 350 was made purely for grabbing that sub 50K MSRP which as we know now backfired. I don't think the lawsuit has a chance, as DGthe3 pointed out, the put it pretty clear in the owners manual that the base cars needed cooling for track use. Yeah it sucks, but I don't think this case has a chance.

[xc_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by 90503

The lawsuit depends on believing marketing hype as being some sort of guarantee....

You get what you pay for usually stands true....and that includes coolers for the track....

Does everyone who eats Wheaties suddenly become just like the athlete on the box?....I think not...

What are you talking about? I feed my Camaro her Wheaties in the morning and she can run 115 in the 1/8...

I think this lawsuit will be won or lost on the reasoning behind WHY Ford is now specing the extra coolers, or the track pack, on all models of the GT350. If it's to save cost, nothing more or less, I think Ford will win. But if there is any indication that the move was to quell future customer complaints then Ford should be on the hook for upgrading all base GT350's with the coolers. I read somewhere that some fine print said the car is not track capable unless equipped with the track pack/coolers. Glad it's not happening to my car lol

[Expunge]

IF Ford has to answer the question: Why in the 2nd model year of the GT350 did Ford make the features that were in the 2015 GT350 Track pack(trans cooler, dif cooler etc.) standard and raise the base price to 57K, then it could end well for the plaintiffs.

Because clearly the only reasonable answer was the GT350 was not 'track ready' in the base or tech package format of the 2015 GT350.

If they can't get Ford to answer that question, then it will be a loss for the plaintiffs..

[JerTM]

Dumb. Can't get made because you opted out of the coolers. It would be like suing when you bought the gas engine because you didn't want to pay the premium for the diesl and it couldn't tow the same as the diesel without overheating. They won't win.

[Expunge]

But then why did Ford make the coolers standard in year two and also add a supplemental to the owners manual covering track use after drivers of the GT350 started experiencing issues at the track.

You can't assume that everyone who buys a car knows exactly what components make it 'track ready'. In fact judging by the sales numbers, only 30% of the buyers knew what they were doing.

Of the 5,643 Base, Technology Package, or Track Package Shelby GT350 Mustangs built by Ford, 3,991 (70.7%) were the Base or Technology Package models. In contrast, only 1,652 (29.3%) were equipped with the Track Package

The more I think about this case, the more I am in favor of the owners.. and I don't care for Ford or Mustang drivers.. so I don't care which way this is eventually resolved.

[khell86]

You can't assume that they combined the track pack components to remedy the overheating issue as well. It could have been done simply due to the lack of takers on a base GT350 as well as a TP GT350. As far as I know, most GT350's were ordered with the Tech package (probably more dealer oriented than buyer).

[JerTM]

I doubt that Ford lacked knowledge that the base model would overheat if tracked in any manner more than just stop light warriors. They do extensive testing on all vehicle before they are in production. I just think they overestimated the intelligence of their target audience when offering them the option not to get the coolers. They more than likely sold the base model simply to get it under the $ mark for the people who only wanted the look of a badass racecar and would never actually use it at a track. Again, Ford underestimated cheap/stupid people.