[Doc]

The problem seems to come down to this: it's priced as a $45k+ car, performs like a $60k+ car, but looks like a $30k+ car; and that in a nutshell is the issue. Regardless of what the apologists say who are never satisfied with any opinion other than their own, the sales numbers don't lie. If it takes massive incentives to get it to sell, there was a problem with the public's perception of its value in the first place.

The styling team needs to really amp up the looks and style. If they want to take the Camaro upscale, and it sure seems like they do, then they need to make it look like it's an upscale car. Make it look like something the studios at McLaren or Aston Martin would produce but give it an American look. Deliver a car with looks in that class and they won't have any problem selling them.

I really wish though, that they wouldn't abandon the blue-collar market segment. The Camaro was their car, and now it isn't. Keep moving the Camaro upscale if they like, but reinvent the $20k+ pony car segment so more than just the affluent can play and be a proud Chevy performance customer.

[chain777]

The problem with the theory that the low sales are part of the plan are the increasing inventories of cars that have been building up on the dealer lots over the past few months.

Last month the inventories were about 16k for the 16 Mustangs and 18K for the 16 Camaros. That stands at about 14.8K and change for the Mustang and 19.5K and change for the Camaro as of today according to cars.com. I doubt a car projected to sell at about half the rate of the other would stock a larger increasing inventory, unless it isn't selling at the numbers that were expected.

I guess the next months numbers with the 0% will see if that was enough to start turning things around. I'd expect cash on the hood to follow if the numbers don't improve much.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by doc7000

Camaro sales do seem to be tanking a bit, however car sales in general are tanking while truck/CUV sales are soaring.

Car sales are definitely down across the board, but if that were the reason, the Camaro would still be beating the Mustang - everyone would be taking a hit in proportion.

What's happening here is a massive shift. The Camaro is so expensive, people would rather have a Mustang for a lot less money, or a Challenger with a lot more interior room. For the first time ever, the Challenger is routinely beating the Camaro, which is the scariest part of all. The Challenger has always been the most expensive by far. Not so anymore.

Rebates won't fix the issue, either. It's the MSRP. You could get a fully loaded 5th Gen with every option for $40,000. Now it's over $50,000. Nobody wants a $53,000 Camaro. That's how much a loaded Camaro costs now with taxes and fees.

To this day, I've only seen ONE 6th Gen on the road - a black V6 - and that was at least 3 months ago. And I live in Philadelphia. The roads are jammed packed with cars all the time. Nobody has a 6th Gen. The Mustang, on the other hand, seems to be every 15th car I see.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by Doc

The problem seems to come down to this: it's priced as a $45k+ car, performs like a $60k+ car, but looks like a $30k+ car; and that in a nutshell is the issue. Regardless of what the apologists say who are never satisfied with any opinion other than their own, the sales numbers don't lie. If it takes massive incentives to get it to sell, there was a problem with the public's perception of its value in the first place.

This I agree with.

Originally Posted by Doc

The styling team needs to really amp up the looks and style. If they want to take the Camaro upscale, and it sure seems like they do, then they need to make it look like it's an upscale car. Make it look like something the studios at McLaren or Aston Martin would produce but give it an American look. Deliver a car with looks in that class and they won't have any problem selling them.

This I seriously disagree with - ironically, for your point below.

Originally Posted by Doc

I really wish though, that they wouldn't abandon the blue-collar market segment. The Camaro was their car, and now it isn't. Keep moving the Camaro upscale if they like, but reinvent the $20k+ pony car segment so more than just the affluent can play and be a proud Chevy performance customer.

This is the problem. The Camaro has always been the performance car for the Average Joe. People making below median salary could afford it. Now, it is priced alongside BMW's. Guess what? Now, the Camaro's loyal fanbase can't afford it, and those that can won't be caught dead in an American muscle car. They'll just buy the BMW, Audi or Mercedes.

You need to make the car affordable for the ironworkers, the painters, the butchers, the concrete finishers, the policemen, the mechanics and the brick layers. Those are the guys that love Camaros. These aren't cars for upper management. They'll buy a 5 series

Classic case of a manufacturer losing their identity. GM forgot who buys Chevy's.

[sprtplt]

It isn't ONLY that the prices are too high "for a Camaro". It is the relative, real-word comparative pricing (even among dissimilar vehicles) that screams out here. For example, you can buy an LT, V8, 4x4 crew cab or double cab Silverado with Mylink, remote start, NAV, power pedals, power rear window, dual zone AC, universal home remote, rear park assist, backup camera, HD trailering, and more, for $35k ($45k msrp).

[DeliveryMan]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

Classic case of a manufacturer losing their identity. GM forgot who buys Chevy's.

I hear ya, but I posted this earlier...I think GM may have been thinking the market would shift a little

I just wanna throw out an observation I made ( I don't have any thing to necessarily back this up)...I think General Motors really was banking on the LT2 V6 w/RS package was going to almost be sought after like the SuperSPort, but yet in that price range most ppl would pull the trigger on.

The 2016 Camaro brochure has the LT2 w/RS package on the cover....on my 2014 brochure the SS is on the cover.

The LT2 with the RS package is close enough (in a way to the average consumer in the market for a sporty fast car) to the 2SS without the V8 and a few of the performance features (Rear diff cooler, Aux engine cooler, etc.).
The current V6 is an impressive engine and sounds good with the dual mode exhaust.

I also think that GM might have believed that there is going to be a slight transition in the market where consumers would get over having a V8 and settle for a LT2 RS with the V6.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

We won't know because we don't know how much it truly costs GM to build this car. It shares a plant that produces other vehicles as well.

Somehow Mazda keeps selling the Miata every year and it sell less than a 1000 per month and it costs $30k or less. Just be happy they are still building these cars.

General Motors currently has a market capitalization of $42.26B.

Mazda Motor Corp. currently has a market capitalization of $7.62B.

If you're going to compare GM to Mazda, GM's stock price would have to immediately fall 82%. What do you think would happen to shareholders and executives if GM's stock fell 82%?

Heads would roll. The Camaro exists for one reason: it turns GM a profit. They have to dedicate huge amounts of manpower, assembly line space and warehouse space to manufacture Camaros. If the Camaro does not sell, GM will replace it with something that will sell better while occupying the same space and utilizing the same horsepower. The Camaro does not exist for any of us. You have to think like a businessman. If the business isn't generating profit, it's gone. Just like the Camaro was axed for not selling in 2002, it WILL happen again if things don't pick up.

This is not a situation where the automobile market is in the toilet. American muscle is still selling. The Camaro just isn't. Sales are moving away from the Camaro to the Mustang and Challenger, which is GM's worst nightmare. No, GM did not plan for this. This is crushing their bottom line - their revenues are taking a big hit moving from the 5th Gen to the 6th Gen and a lot of people are looking bad right now. By all business definitions, the 6th Gen so far has been a complete failure. Magazine articles do not define success. Only sales figures define success.

The problem is the pricing structure - the core Camaro fanbase has been priced out of the Camaro market. The 6th Gen V6 costs the same as a 5th Gen V8, and the 6th Gen V8 costs the same as a 5th Gen ZL1. It is a HUGE problem when I can buy a new loaded 2015 ZL1 on Black Friday clearance for $46,000, but a loaded 2016 SS costs me $51,000.

GM cannot afford an SS that sells like a ZL1. These are supposed to be VOLUME cars. It is still early, but SOMETHING must be done to decrease the manufacturing costs in 2017 and reduce the MSRP at least 5% or the entire line is in jeopardy.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by sprtplt

It isn't ONLY that the prices are too high "for a Camaro". It is the relative, real-word comparative pricing (even among dissimilar vehicles) that screams out here. For example, you can buy an LT, V8, 4x4 crew cab or double cab Silverado with Mylink, remote start, NAV, power pedals, power rear window, dual zone AC, universal home remote, rear park assist, backup camera, HD trailering, and more, for $35k ($45k msrp).

This is the problem. It is 2016. People want TECHNOLOGY. Not performance. The public would GLADLY take a slower Camaro with more technology for a lower price. You can argue that a stripper 1SS can be had in the $30's. NOBODY WANTS A STRIPPER 1SS when they can get a fully loaded Mustang with all the bells and whistles for the same cost. Nobody cares the Mustang is slower in every way. The Mustang is plenty fast enough for the general public. People won't pay $35,000 for a V6, and they won't pay $50,000 for a V8. They'll go elsewhere. They'll go Ford, where they can get a V6 for $25,000 and a V8 for $35,000.

People want leather, heated seats, bluetooth, a big touchscreen, a sunroof, a cool looking interior, back-up cameras, side sensors and all that fancy crap. They don't want a car that runs 11.9's stock. If it does that's great, but nobody really cares about that. They'll take a car that runs a 13.2 with all that technology for $37,000 ANY DAY over a faster car for $47,000.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by DeliveryMan

I hear ya, but I posted this earlier...I think GM may have been thinking the market would shift a little

I just wanna throw out an observation I made ( I don't have any thing to necessarily back this up)...I think General Motors really was banking on the LT2 V6 w/RS package was going to almost be sought after like the SuperSPort, but yet in that price range most ppl would pull the trigger on.

The 2016 Camaro brochure has the LT2 w/RS package on the cover....on my 2014 brochure the SS is on the cover.

The LT2 with the RS package is close enough (in a way to the average consumer in the market for a sporty fast car) to the 2SS without the V8 and a few of the performance features (Rear diff cooler, Aux engine cooler, etc.).
The current V6 is an impressive engine and sounds good with the dual mode exhaust.

I also think that GM might have believed that there is going to be a slight transition in the market where consumers would get over having a V8 and settle for a LT2 RS with the V6.

No kid in America ever had a poster of a V6 Camaro in their bedroom growing up. If GM ever tries to make a V6 model as a centerpiece for a muscle car, they're destined for failure.

The V8 needs to be easily affordable to the working class dad, and the V6 needs to be easily affordable to the college grad with their first job out of school.

Right now, the college grad can't afford a $35,000 V6, and the working class dad isn't going to drop $35,000 on a V6 Camaro when he can get a V8 Mustang for the same price.

[DeliveryMan]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

No kid in America ever had a poster of a V6 Camaro in their bedroom growing up. If GM ever tries to make a V6 model as a centerpiece for a muscle car, they're destined for failure.

The V8 needs to be easily affordable to the working class dad, and the V6 needs to be easily affordable to the college grad with their first job out of school.

Right now, the college grad can't afford a $35,000 V6, and the working class dad isn't going to drop $35,000 on a V6 Camaro when he can get a V8 Mustang for the same price.

Right Choco,
I was making an observation about perhaps what GM was doing, if they were banking on the LT V6 to be a huge mover...maybe they miscalculated?

[The_Driver]

Originally Posted by Doc

The problem seems to come down to this: it's priced as a $45k+ car, performs like a $60k+ car, but looks like a $30k+ car; and that in a nutshell is the issue. Regardless of what the apologists say who are never satisfied with any opinion other than their own, the sales numbers don't lie. If it takes massive incentives to get it to sell, there was a problem with the public's perception of its value in the first place.

The styling team needs to really amp up the looks and style. If they want to take the Camaro upscale, and it sure seems like they do, then they need to make it look like it's an upscale car. Make it look like something the studios at McLaren or Aston Martin would produce but give it an American look. Deliver a car with looks in that class and they won't have any problem selling them.

I really wish though, that they wouldn't abandon the blue-collar market segment. The Camaro was their car, and now it isn't. Keep moving the Camaro upscale if they like, but reinvent the $20k+ pony car segment so more than just the affluent can play and be a proud Chevy performance customer.

I agree. The front half of the car looks good, but then it loses it's luster after the B-pillar. The dropped rear shoulder line and the lowered rear wheel well height on the body makes the car look cheaper than the 5th gen. On the other hand, the new Mustang looks more expensive than the last generation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If GM went to a retro inspired 2nd gen F-body design theme for the 6th gen, we wouldn't be having this discussion of slow sales. The car would be selling like hotcakes. Unfortunately, GM decided to play it too safe and gave us a slightly smaller, heavily revised Alpha based 5th gen.

[Rusty35]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

General Motors currently has a market capitalization of $42.26B.

Mazda Motor Corp. currently has a market capitalization of $7.62B.

If you're going to compare GM to Mazda, GM's stock price would have to immediately fall 82%. What do you think would happen to shareholders and executives if GM's stock fell 82%?

Heads would roll. The Camaro exists for one reason: it turns GM a profit. They have to dedicate huge amounts of manpower, assembly line space and warehouse space to manufacture Camaros. If the Camaro does not sell, GM will replace it with something that will sell better while occupying the same space and utilizing the same horsepower. The Camaro does not exist for any of us. You have to think like a businessman. If the business isn't generating profit, it's gone. Just like the Camaro was axed for not selling in 2002, it WILL happen again if things don't pick up.

This is not a situation where the automobile market is in the toilet. American muscle is still selling. The Camaro just isn't. Sales are moving away from the Camaro to the Mustang and Challenger, which is GM's worst nightmare. No, GM did not plan for this. This is crushing their bottom line - their revenues are taking a big hit moving from the 5th Gen to the 6th Gen and a lot of people are looking bad right now. By all business definitions, the 6th Gen so far has been a complete failure. Magazine articles do not define success. Only sales figures define success.

The problem is the pricing structure - the core Camaro fanbase has been priced out of the Camaro market. The 6th Gen V6 costs the same as a 5th Gen V8, and the 6th Gen V8 costs the same as a 5th Gen ZL1. It is a HUGE problem when I can buy a new loaded 2015 ZL1 on Black Friday clearance for $46,000, but a loaded 2016 SS costs me $51,000.

GM cannot afford an SS that sells like a ZL1. These are supposed to be VOLUME cars. It is still early, but SOMETHING must be done to decrease the manufacturing costs in 2017 and reduce the MSRP at least 5% or the entire line is in jeopardy.

How are the other cars built at the Lansing plant selling compared to the camaro?

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by DeliveryMan

Right Choco,
I was making an observation about perhaps what GM was doing, if they were banking on the LT V6 to be a huge mover...maybe they miscalculated?

Over the last several years, the V6 accounted for about 75% of sales. First year is always weighted more to the V8 but not after that. GM would be correct in expecting the V6 to sell in higher volume. The question mark this time is the 2.0T.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by Rusty35

How are the other cars built at the Lansing plant selling compared to the camaro?

Both the ATS and CTS underwhelmed in sales and were initially over produced creating huge dealer surpluses.