[xgnxs]

Originally Posted by GMapologists

And posts like yours are exactly why another Camaro owner like ME has to come in and give unbiased, educated, and accurate advice instead of fan boy garbage.



You should be embarrassed to try to censor a fellow Camaro owner who has the right to share information and solicit information, like everyone else.
I made my polite and unbiased statement on this subject, and every Camaro owner should agree with it:
Everyone wanting a "paddle shifting experience" from the A8 needs to personally test the A8 and M6 before making their decision, especially those coming from a manual transmission and/or wanting a DCT experience when compared to a proper DCT/PDK.

Ha! I have a feeling this is yet another account by the now classic Rob C / ECS C6 / EvoShift / whatever else. All posts read extremely similarly. I would be positive but I haven't seen a mention of AWD yet.

But the "a DCT is the ONE TRUE GOD OF TRANSMSSION" + CAPITALIZED WORDS FOR EMPHASIS + I ordered mine with a 6 SPEED MANUAL because a 6th gen RWD SS with a manual is THE performance car to get!! is what really makes me think it's the same guy.

If only it had options for a DCT and AWD. Then it would be perfect.

Like seriously go drive a vehicle with a DCT, THEN YOU ALL WILL KNOW!!!111!!!11!

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SUMMIT WHITE SS

How does he "learn to use it"? There is no skill when it comes to pulling a paddle...The lag is inherent to torque converter transmissions. I know a few who have own A8 Vettes myself, and a few track them at SCCA and NASA events with me, it's always there (the lag) to the point one traded his in for a manual. It may lesson, but it doesn't ever go away. Quite honestly, if you want to shift on a track, you should buy the manual, not the automatic. As the A8 is slower if you shift it, and quicker if you leave it in D. Even GM recommends the manual for track use...


I think he meant if you let off the throttle and coast in the manual it obviously stays in the gear you have it in, while if you do that in an automatic in most cases it will upshift a gear or more...

Wait are you saying you can notice a 100ms or less difference in shifts? Because that's the difference between any of the ZF based units and the 8L90 in auto mode. The paddle delay maybe more specific to the 8L90, but the ZF units (which I own) or the Dodge ones don't have that trouble. Look at the video posted by Mikey a page or so back of the Challenger. There is no human measurable delay there. So your statement should be there is a noticeable delay in manual mode in the 8L90 you have driven.

I still say there is some adaptive programming issues going on here. The '16 Charger RT definitely did not paddle shift as fast as I've seen in videos or my BMW does.


I don't know about you, but I've never coasted for a couple of secs and then when I got back on the guess had my ZF downshift just cruising. Maybe if I pressed the pedal harder than I was before I let off, or if I had the car in sport mode which makes it eager to downshift. So unless you coast for long enough to drop 10-15mph and need a downshift, it is a mute point.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

You're so much better off not even messing with the paddles and just letting it do everything for you. They really just a toy for people that can't drive stick.

Sure you can shift it into neutral, but then you're going to have to put it back into drive - and then it will dump you back into a gear just as it would have if you didn't put into N in the first place. That doesn't solve the problem of it throwing you into a gear that you don't want to be in. You end up fighting it instead of just selecting the gear what you want to be.

You are exactly right. Honestly the paddles in my BMW are more like a toy because in reality flipping through 8 gears gets to be hassle very quick. Once the newness of them wore out, I realized putting the trans into sport mode did a more effective job (since it was quicker to drop multiple gears and better at picking the right gear) than I could manually. Do I still use them occasionally, yes. But not enough that paddle delay on a Camaro would make me pick something else.

See my post about coasting, I think you are making a big deal out of a very unlikely scenario.

Originally Posted by xgnxs

Ha! I have a feeling this is yet another account by the now classic Rob C / ECS C6 / EvoShift / whatever else. All posts read extremely similarly. I would be positive but I haven't seen a mention of AWD yet.

But the "a DCT is the ONE TRUE GOD OF TRANSMSSION" + CAPITALIZED WORDS FOR EMPHASIS + I ordered mine with a 6 SPEED MANUAL because a 6th gen RWD SS with a manual is THE performance car to get!! is what really makes me think it's the same guy.

If only it had options for a DCT and AWD. Then it would be perfect.

Like seriously go drive a vehicle with a DCT, THEN YOU ALL WILL KNOW!!!111!!!11!

LOL you know I was thinking the same for awhile. And the funny thing is he thinks he's being civil, when he's been a condescending jackass for pages now.

[LesBaer]

If you look at what GM was telling people with C7's with the A8 that were overheating after 20 minutes of spirited driving in 70F, that should tell you everything you need to know. They had to add extra cooling to the 2016 models (which the Camaro also has btw) to address the problem.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by SUMMIT WHITE SS

First off, let me say I have not decided fully which transmission I am going to get yet. I currently own both a manual and automatic, and am not biased in anyway (like some of you folks in here) but, many of your comments are incorrect, and seem to just try to defend your purchase/choice.


So you are comparing it to the most economy minded one (Ford) and the most basic performance one (VW)? As for PDK, vs the A8, I've driven both many times, and while the A8 is very good, and comparable to the PDK when left in auto mode, when in manual mode there is no comparison.

The person I quoted specifically called out the DCT in the VW. Since I've owned a few and driven many, it seemed like we had a shared experience with different opinions. That doesn't make me incorrect.

How does he "learn to use it"? There is no skill when it comes to pulling a paddle...The lag is inherent to torque converter transmissions. I know a few who own A8 Vettes myself, and a few track them at SCCA and NASA events with me, it's always there (the lag) to the point one traded his in for a manual. It may lesson with adaptive learning, but it doesn't ever go away. Quite honestly, if you want to shift on a track, you should buy the manual, not the automatic. As the A8 is slower if you shift it, and quicker if you leave it in D. Even GM recommends the manual for track use...

This pretty much explains most of the misconceptions of those that have limited exposure to the 8L90.

1) Can't shift a manual faster than the 8L90 (even with the paddle shifters), so if someone traded in for a M6 then it wasn't because of that, it was probably because they wanted a manual.
2) Yes, you need to learn how to use it. For example, it takes input from the eDiff, steering and several other things. At the track, the proper form for shifting is brake before the corner, downshift and accelerate as you unwind the steering. If you accelerate or downshift at the wrong time it will delay the shift to keep from upsetting the balance of the car. However, if you do it right it will shift very quickly. If you learn to use the optimal gear selection feature while paddle shifting, not only does it downshift will shift incredibly fast (according to GM it is quicker than the PDK). If you have too much steering angle as you upshift it will again delay the shift. This is where you see the greatest lag (much less than a second) and where the PDK will be faster (according to GM).
3) Learn proper use of the shifters. I've seen many people that have their fingers off the shifters until they are ready to change gears. Additionally, the shifters have a travel distance (pretty large in my mind and definitely could be improved upon). Both of these add to the IMPRESSION of a lag. They can be solved by not only keeping your fingers on the shifters at all times and by keeping them slightly depressed to minimize the travel time.

Let's also be clear about what Tadge said. If you want the absolute fastest time in a hot lap leave it in Auto mode. If you want to have good repeated laps go for the manual OR USE MANUAL MODE IN THE AUTOMATIC. Most people evidently quit read before the bolded part. I've done the Corvette performance driving class, and they had us use the paddle shifters and taught us how to properly use them.

I think he meant if you let off the throttle and coast in the manual it obviously stays in the gear you have it in, while if you do that in an automatic in most cases it will upshift a gear or more...

It will do the same with the auto in manual mode except it downshifts to the highest gear it will allow for that speed (except when fully stopped). That's probably preferable to potentially lagging the engine by being in to high a gear for the speed.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending my decision. I really could care less what transmission others prefer/choose. I just don't like misinformation and half truths. All I know is I turned in the best lap time in my performance driving class, way ahead of all the manual Z06s. I'm not that much better a driver than they were (if at all). Learn to use the automatic in manual mode the way the designers intended it to be used, and you are always in the right gear at the right time and you can focus on other things to improve you overall speed. I agree with the OP...the A8 is outstanding.

[Stex]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

If you look at what GM was telling people with C7's with the A8 that were overheating after 20 minutes of spirited driving in 70F, that should tell you everything you need to know. They had to add extra cooling to the 2016 models (which the Camaro also has btw) to address the problem.

Read the entire article. Overheating in manual. GM says the auto is quicker in non-manual than someone shifting it. IE human element is slower getting the correct gear at the right time, like with a stick

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Wait are you saying you can notice a 100ms or less difference in shifts? Because that's the difference between any of the ZF based units and the 8L90 in auto mode.

I was talking about when in manual mode, hence why I was talking about using the paddles and mentioned manual mode a few times, and I said it shifted well when left in auto mode...

Originally Posted by SuperSound

The paddle delay maybe more specific to the 8L90, but the ZF units (which I own) or the Dodge ones don't have that trouble.

Every torque converter based automatic I have driven, GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc has had a delay at WOT when pulling the paddle, to when it actually shifted. My friend has an automatic Scat Pack Charger, that was definitely the best, but still had a slight lag. The issue with this when compared to a manual is that when you shift a manual you control the throttle cut off, with an automatic if you wait until the desired shift point, which at WOT will be near, or at redline, the delay can cause the car to pass the shift point and fall slightly out of the powerband, or hit the rev limiter. This is why I don't understand why anyone would want to manually shift these new automatics, just leave them in drive.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I still say there is some adaptive programming issues going on here. The '16 Charger RT definitely did not paddle shift as fast as I've seen in videos or my BMW does.

Isn't your BMW a DCT?

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I don't know about you, but I've never coasted for a couple of secs and then when I got back on the guess had my ZF downshift just cruising. Maybe if I pressed the pedal harder than I was before I let off, or if I had the car in sport mode which makes it eager to downshift. So unless you coast for long enough to drop 10-15mph and need a downshift, it is a mute point.

I never mentioned anything in regards to automatics downshifting if you let off and coast...I said upshift.

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

1) Can't shift a manual faster than the 8L90 (even with the paddle shifters), so if someone traded in for a M6 then it wasn't because of that, it was probably because they wanted a manual.

People continue to ignore the main aspect of ANY paddle delay...I have said it before, let me copy it here again:

The issue with this when compared to a manual is that when you shift a manual you control the throttle cut off, with an automatic if you wait until the desired shift point, which at WOT will be near, or at redline, the delay can cause the car to pass the shift point and fall slightly out of the powerband, or hit the rev limiter. This is why I don't understand why anyone would want to manually shift these new automatics, just leave them in drive.

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

2) Yes, you need to learn how to use it. For example, it takes input from the eDiff, steering and several other things. At the track, the proper form for shifting is brake before the corner, downshift and accelerate as you unwind the steering. If you accelerate or downshift at the wrong time it will delay the shift to keep from upsetting the balance of the car. However, if you do it right it will shift very quickly. If you learn to use the optimal gear selection feature while paddle shifting, not only does it downshift will shift incredibly fast (according to GM it is quicker than the PDK). If you have too much steering angle as you upshift it will again delay the shift. This is where you see the greatest lag (much less than a second) and where the PDK will be faster (according to GM).

All of this is a tremendous reason to buy the manual if you want to track it. I just don't see the point if you want to track the car in buying the automatic and then using the manual mode which has inherent faults in this respect. Just leave it in drive.

There are multiple reasons why GM themselves recommend the manual if you plan to track the car.

Now, I am not knocking the A8 in anyway, it's a fantastic transmission...when left in drive.

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by Stex

Read the entire article. Overheating in manual. GM says the auto is quicker in non-manual than someone shifting it. IE human element is slower getting the correct gear at the right time, like with a stick

I've read more than one article when I was looking to buy a C7. I spoke to many C7 owners about the problems they were having and how it was being handled by GM. What GM says to Corvette owners that bought the automatic is that it wasn't intended for track use (as ridiculous as that sounds). Only owners that hired a lawyer were "lucky" enough to swap their cars for a manual - and got nothing back for the $ they spent on the automatic. Yes, both overheat - engine oil temps in both exceeded 200F. The C7 was my first choice, but it's been a nightmare for some people and I didn't want to take that chance.

The A8 is definitely going to shift quicker, but that's the mechanical act of shifting and doesn't account for the input lag. I have no intention of drag racing or stop light racing with the car. I want a true sports car experience where I as the driver control everything. I also plan on adding a super charger and I'm not taking any chances with an automatic.

I haven't driven a manual since I was a teenager but I intend to learn so I can experience this car in its purest form instead of fighting a computer. It's all about what makes each person happy. If you like the A8 and having it do everything for you, go nuts. Pretending there's no lag or that you can drive it exactly like it's a stick because they added paddles just isn't true.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Stex

Read the entire article. Overheating in manual. GM says the auto is quicker in non-manual than someone shifting it. IE human element is slower getting the correct gear at the right time, like with a stick

Huge difference though...the automatics have much, much more of an overheating issue then the manuals. GM themselves recommend the manual if you are tracking the car.

Funny thing is I know three people with new Z06's, two manuals, one automatic. They all track them, and well. Even in FL none of them have overheated. It must take long sessions to make them overheat. I think I read that someone (may have been TSP?) was making cooling upgrades to stop any issues, if you had them...

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by SUMMIT WHITE SS

Huge difference though...the automatics have much, much more of an overheating issue then the manuals. GM themselves recommend the manual if you are tracking the car.

Funny thing is I know three people with new Z06's, two manuals, one automatic. They all track them, and well. Even in FL none of them have overheated. It must take long sessions to make them overheat. I think I read that someone (may have been TSP?) was making cooling upgrades to stop any issues, if you had them...

Several things around this. First the "heat soak" issue seemed be largely related to poorly bled superchargers in the Z06. Second, the Z06s have additional transmission cooling that Z51's didn't (until 2016 MY), but somehow their transmission heat issues were assumed to exist in Z06s. Finally, most of the transmission heat issues can be avoided by not engine braking...which is a bad idea on the track no matter what transmission you have.

Remember, they track them all day long every day at Ron Fellows and they have never experienced an overheating issue. I asked while I was there.

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by SUMMIT WHITE SS

Huge difference though...the automatics have much, much more of an overheating issue then the manuals. GM themselves recommend the manual if you are tracking the car.

Funny thing is I know three people with new Z06's, two manuals, one automatic. They all track them, and well. Even in FL none of them have overheated. It must take long sessions to make them overheat. I think I read that someone (may have been TSP?) was making cooling upgrades to stop any issues, if you had them...

Yeah, it's not everyone but people are really upset that it's happening to. The people I talked said they couldn't go more than 20 minutes if it was above 70F. When they added the extra cooling on the 2016's, it really pissed a lot of people off because they did nothing for everyone else with the problem except tell them their cars weren't designed for the track...I would've lost it on them. Even on the 2016's they're still having trouble keeping engine oil temps down.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SUMMIT WHITE SS

I was talking about when in manual mode, I thought it was obvious as I mentioned using the paddles and mentioned manual mode a few times, and I said it shifted well when left in auto mode...

Every torque converter based automatic I have driven, GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc has had a delay at WOT when pulling the paddle, to when it actually shifted. My friend has an automatic Scat Pack Charger, that was definitely the best, but still had a slight lag. The issue with this when compared to a manual is that when you shift a manual you control the throttle cut off, with an automatic if you wait until the desired shift point, which at WOT will be near, or at redline, the delay can cause the car to pass the shift point and fall slightly out of the powerband, or hit the rev limiter. This is why I don't understand why anyone would want to manually shift these new automatics, just leave them in drive.


Isn't your BMW a DCT?


Not sure why you brought this up? I never mentioned anything in regards to automatics downshifting if you let off and coast...

Your statement about torque converters is why I said that. But your second reply quantifies what you mean by lag. I thought you meant there was like a 1 sec delay with all of them simply because they were converter trans. I agree 100-200ms could take you past rev limiter if you did not anticipate the shift. Completely agree. I know I definitely would not try to get that close to redline, and would initiate a shift early (which I do in my BMW already). But if I am making a pass at the strip, no way I would try it with the paddles, auto mode or nothing. Which is what you were trying to say, I just didn't see it. My apologies.

Nope, it's a ZF 8HP. Only the M cars get DCTs. Personally my experience with DCTs has been they are great for performance driving, annoying in heavy traffic/city driving. My wife's Fiesta (with Ford's DCT) probably has the worst designed one in the world, so that might be part of the reason. But DCT issues in the city are well documented, and probably some of reason GM decided not to pursue it. After all, let's remember Ford has jointly made a 10 speed and 9 speed trans with GM. Pretty obvious Ford has regretted their DCTs for the domestic market.

Sorry, quoted the wrong person about that one. It was for LesBaer

[sprtplt]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

I guess literally every major auto publication that reviewed the car didn't learn how to use an automatic transmission with paddles either then. ..

Not just auto publications, this trans has been out there in everything from the Stingray to the Silverado and the problems reported by owners are legion. Harsh shifts, odd cold behavior, odd warm behavior, shift lag, shift hang, numerous outright failures.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by SUMMIT WHITE SS

...

People continue to ignore the main aspect of ANY paddle delay...I have said it before, let me copy it here again:

The issue with this when compared to a manual is that when you shift a manual you control the throttle cut off, with an automatic if you wait until the desired shift point, which at WOT will be near, or at redline, the delay can cause the car to pass the shift point and fall slightly out of the powerband, or hit the rev limiter. This is why I don't understand why anyone would want to manually shift these new automatics, just leave them in drive.

You control throttle in both, and both have a lag. If situation you described above didn't apply to manual transmissions, there would be no need for shift lights.

All of this is a tremendous reason to buy the manual if you want to track it. I just don't see the point if you want to track the car in buying the automatic and then using the manual mode which has inherent faults in this respect. Just leave it in drive.

What inherent faults?

There are multiple reasons why GM themselves recommend the manual if you plan to track the car.

Now, I am not knocking the A8 in anyway, it's a fantastic transmission...when left in drive.

Again, go back and read what Tadge (the MAN) said about the Corvette. Leaving off the parts where he said get the manual OR USE MANUAL MODE IN THE AUTOMATIC is not giving the complete picture. There is a reason the folks at the Corvette driving school have people use the paddle shifters instead of leaving it in fully automatic mode. I'm pretty sure their experience trumps that of all of us combined.