[MLL67RSSS]

Originally Posted by Rhyder

But back to your question...please point out or link where I stated that anything reported was inaccurate.

OK you got me. Touche. You win!
Yep those bad ignition switches caused those people to drive double and triple the speed limit, some in poor conditions, and some driving drunk, and some without seat belts. People NEVER crash cars and die driving drunk or dangerously, or at two or three times the speed limit, or in poor conditions, or not wearing a seat belt, with perfectly good ignition switches. So I guess those facts are irrelevant. Wow. Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS

OK you got me. Touche. You win!
Yep those bad ignition switches caused those people to drive double and triple the speed limit, some in poor conditions, and some driving drunk, and some without seat belts. People NEVER crash cars and die driving drunk or dangerously, or at two or three times the speed limit, or in poor conditions, or not wearing a seat belt, with perfectly good ignition switches.

I think it's a fair assumption that the consequences of a deficient ignition switch are additive to the rest of the risks those people were taking. Could easily make the difference between survivability and fatality, but I wouldn't even try to guess at what the % of fault belongs with the switch in those cases. Pick your own number between 1 and 99.


Norm

[McRat]

Originally Posted by Rhyder

...
My problem is when they knowingly sell a product that is defective, ...

Guess I needed Cliff Notes for you.

Nothing is sold that is not "defective".

Nothing.

Even bottled water has a defect rate and MRB action.

Every Company Knowingly Sells Defect Parts.

The only way around it is to stop producing.

What my shop does is determine whether a part is defective. 20 years, 35,000 josb, and 1000 customers later I can tell you nobody makes perfection.

And they know it.

If they are ISO 9001, they don't "hide" it as you suggest. Everything is documented.

This isn't about GM, or cars. It's about an attitude and a set of laws that do not line up with the truth.

It will get so bad, that at some point we must as a civilization decide whether the courts will redefine reality, and we collapse.

There isn't a school that is perfect, a park, a library, a house, a road, a business, a family, a church, a movie, a news outlet, etc.

When absolute perfection becomes a legal requirement, it all folds.

And it starts with people like you. Those who do not understand life, but feel that courts should be able to define what it is.

And you can play the game for awhile. But it will come for you as well. A court will decide you are not perfect, and you will be punished.

Suggested viewing: Gattaca. It all started with assumption of perfection as the norm.

Get well soon!

[NYJets77]

Originally Posted by McRat

Guess I needed Cliff Notes for you.

Nothing is sold that is not "defective".

Nothing.

Even bottled water has a defect rate and MRB action.

Every Company Knowingly Sells Defect Parts.

The only way around it is to stop producing.

What my shop does is determine whether a part is defective. 20 years, 35,000 josb, and 1000 customers later I can tell you nobody makes perfection.

And they know it.

If they are ISO 9001, they don't "hide" it as you suggest. Everything is documented.

This isn't about GM, or cars. It's about an attitude and a set of laws that do not line up with the truth.

It will get so bad, that at some point we must as a civilization decide whether the courts will redefine reality, and we collapse.

There isn't a school that is perfect, a park, a library, a house, a road, a business, a family, a church, a movie, a news outlet, etc.

When absolute perfection becomes a legal requirement, it all folds.

And it starts with people like you. Those who do not understand life, but feel that courts should be able to define what it is.

And you can play the game for awhile. But it will come for you as well. A court will decide you are not perfect, and you will be punished.

Suggested viewing: Gattaca. It all started with assumption of perfection as the norm.

Get well soon!

ridiculous argument, if you can call it an argument; certainly a logical fallacy.
you're using "not perfect" and "defective" as synonyms and they are NOT. things can be not perfect and within allowable tolerances and still work without problems.

GM knew they had a problem as far back as 2001; hid it; threatened early complainers with lawsuits. People died.

The people at the heart of this should face jail time, same as people in any industry in similar situations.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by McRat

This isn't about GM, or cars. It's about an attitude and a set of laws that do not line up with the truth.

IOW, those laws bear less resemblance to reality than what they expect from the people and things governed by them . . .




Silly me for thinking that the rules ought to demonstrate by example as well as by literal content . . .


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by NYJets77

you're using "not perfect" and "defective" as synonyms and they are NOT. things can be not perfect and within allowable tolerances and still work without problems.

The problem is that to an aggressive product liability attorney, "not perfect" and "defective" might as well be synonyms.


Norm

[King Sun]

Originally Posted by jd10013

and again, your missing the point. the primary arguments of the case are that the airbags deactivated when the key went to off. the other primary driver in it is that GM knew it was an issue, and choose to cover it up. they knew the ignition was prone to moving into the off position and that the airbags would go off when that happened. that's the crux of it. not how fast anybody was going, or if they were drunk. that's all irrelevant to weather or not there was a design flaw with the ignition.

but you are right, GM will be fine. this will probably end up costing them somewhere around 1.5 billion, but that's not enough to seriously hurt them. and because it happened awhile ago, I doubt people worry much about it when making a purchase.

everybody Is missing this point. People are too busy championing and brand they let emotions get to the better of them. This is why they are being fined not the evil media or govt.

[McRat]

GM is being fined because all key type ignition systems fail when you try and destroy them. It's not if, it's when. Any lock will fail given enough time and load.

GM simply did not see a 0.01% defect rate as being a game changer. 0.01% is a WildAssGuess. The real failure level is probably a lot lower.

In the last 15 years, GM sold about 60 million cars and trucks in the US with key ignitions. If 0.01% (1 per 10,000) failed and caused death, that would be 6,000 deaths.

[Rhyder]

Originally Posted by McRat

GM is being fined because all key type ignition systems fail when you try and destroy them. It's not if, it's when. Any lock will fail given enough time and load.

GM simply did not see a 0.01% defect rate as being a game changer. 0.01% is a WildAssGuess. The real failure level is probably a lot lower.

In the last 15 years, GM sold about 60 million cars and trucks in the US with key ignitions. If 0.01% (1 per 10,000) failed and caused death, that would be 6,000 deaths.

your failing to take into account the ones that failed but didnt cause a death, thats all thats being talked about, who knows how many failed and left people on the side of the road or in the middle of traffic? who thought it was a normal failure and payed to fix , etc who arent counted.

[trademaster]

Originally Posted by McRat

Dirty little secret.

There is no such animal as perfection. The current goal it to exceed 6 sigma.

Nearly every part on an aircraft or car has a failure history. The MRB paperwork on a single 747 weighs more than the aircraft.

At this point, do you throw the airplane away? No, you do an assessment of failure probability and do cost analysis. This is what is taught in college.

Cars are no different and every brand of car now has govtlawyermedia at their throats for not being perfect. The automobile industry is required not only to sell you a cheap car, but to pile hundreds of GovLaw parts on to it that really aren't logical.

In this case, GM saw that if somebody hung a bunch of weight off the ignition, the lock could break. Which is true for all cars made that use key ignitions. And has always been true. But up until today, it was never considered to be a lethal flaw except a very, very small statistical element.

Today, it's the automotive industry. Other industries are already gone.

Here's the risk. If a govlaw can make a trillion dollars by proving the aircraft mfrs sell a dangerous product, and know about it, and sell it regardless...

Would govlaw do what is right for humanity, or would they destroy air travel?

We all know the answer to that.

Poor little General Motors, the government is always against them. . .

[McRat]

Originally Posted by trademaster

Poor little General Motors, the government is always against them. . .

Naw, our government ain't that picky. They are pretty much against all business. Well, except ones they skim money from, like the Green Industry.

[Rhyder]

Originally Posted by McRat

GM is being fined because all key type ignition systems fail when you try and destroy them. It's not if, it's when. Any lock will fail given enough time and load.

GM simply did not see a 0.01% defect rate as being a game changer. 0.01% is a WildAssGuess. The real failure level is probably a lot lower.

In the last 15 years, GM sold about 60 million cars and trucks in the US with key ignitions. If 0.01% (1 per 10,000) failed and caused death, that would be 6,000 deaths.

more I think about it the less i like this argument. Percentages is exactly the problem I have with this. i dont care if it was infinitesimal compared to quantity sold, 1 death is to much.

Should we not bother to tell Gerber they need to not sell baby food that has broken glass in it? i mean of the millions of babies who eat gerber food, what percentage die from the broken glass? i mean really, isn't life worth less than a 1% increase in the bottom line?

I mean no one can be perfect, every single item sold has a potentially death causing defect right? I fully expect my keyboard to break in half and send shards of plastic into my brain any second now.

I don't expect products to be perfect, i do expect products that can kill me to be fully free of defects that could cause my death to the best of the sellers knowledge. And as soon as the seller of that product knows about any defect that could cause injury or death, they need to immediately take steps to correct and warn me about the potential issue. None of which GM did in this case.

[trademaster]

Originally Posted by McRat

Naw, our government ain't that picky. They are pretty much against all business. Well, except ones they skim money from, like the Green Industry.

Other than that whole TARP thing which was really insignificant for GM, right?

[29er]

for me it doesn't change anything.
they still have my confidence.