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Old 02-10-2013, 09:56 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Mick1 View Post
the way i see it, it's better to have a choice than not.
it would be fine if they offered a 4 cyl. camaro and let the people buy the camaro with the engine type that they like
More choice almost always comes in at a greater expense. Unless you want to pay more for the v6 or the v8, you probably wouldn't like a turbo I4. That is my only opposition.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:01 AM   #128
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Why would anyone want a 4 cyl camaro?? Sounds a bit lame.
I don't know, and I don't want to know. Correct, it's lame.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:20 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post

I don't see that at all. What I do see is a few V8 cheerleaders expressing fear that any new 4-cylinder variant will be not the least bit better than models with the low-tech 4's of the fairly distant past, and that somehow the V8 versions will be adversely affected as a direct result. Kind of a glass-is-half-empty train of thought.


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I'm sure you are correct about the new 4's being far better than the old ones...but no matter what, I don't think it can be denied that there is a definite "stigma" and mind-set about them that will cause GM to lose Camaro customers...that is, those who see the brand as a way to get away and be different from all the existing 4-banger, rice-rocket, econo-cars that are in vast supply in other models...

...Just because the I-4 technically can work in the new Camaro platform, doesn't mean it "has to" go in it...Get your 4 in a GM Cruze, Sonic, or Spark...Step up to the Camaro if you want more than that...
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:27 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by camaro-dreamer View Post
More choice almost always comes in at a greater expense. Unless you want to pay more for the v6 or the v8, you probably wouldn't like a turbo I4. That is my only opposition.
I like to drive a manual and most people prefer the automatic. If GM took away the transmission choices and built only automatic camaros because it's more cost effective to build only one kind of transmission, most likely, I would have bought another car. That's why I am for more choices, be it transmission types or engine choices
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:08 AM   #131
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I don't think it can be denied that there is a definite "stigma" and mind-set about them that will cause GM to lose Camaro customers...that is, those who see the brand as a way to get away and be different from all the existing 4-banger, rice-rocket, econo-cars that are in vast supply in other models...
I'm trying really hard to avoid coming to the wrong conclusions here, but I just can't see why if you can make the choice you want that the existence of any other option matters. What I can see is that all three engine configurations (4, 6, 8) probably can't be accommodated in the same relatively low-volume platform

I've been at this sort of decision point before, several times.

In 1979 when we had a Malibu 2-door coupe built to order, it was the top-available engine for low altitude (with a 4M tranny, HD cooling and alternator). Since we never considered anything but a V8/MT coupe, it's as if all other variants were being sold on another planet.

Same thing with the Mustang, except that I wasn't interested in the GT500 beyond wanting two sets of its front tire and wheel package fitted to my car on its build. That other versions exist still doesn't matter, so it really doesn't matter to me how they were equipped; none of them are in my driveway.

Even the last time was a similar decision point, only it was H4 turbo vs either H4 NA (about 1/3 less power) or H6 NA (with similar power). While I know intellectually that the other versions exist (and are in fact more popular), it's not something I'd ever dwell on. If I wanted to think about it at all, it'd be really easy to come to the conclusion that I'd picked the best of the bunch while other buyers simply chose differently. I'm OK with that.


Quote:
...Just because the I-4 technically can work in the new Camaro platform, doesn't mean it "has to" go in it...Get your 4 in a GM Cruze, Sonic, or Spark.
Make that a normally aspirated 4 in all of those platforms and I'd probably agree wholeheartedly (I haven't really been considering a NA 4-powered Camaro other than as a V8 AFM condition). 1250 lbs/liter (NA) is not very exciting.


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Old 02-10-2013, 11:24 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Mick1 View Post
I like to drive a manual and most people prefer the automatic. If GM took away the transmission choices and built only automatic camaros because it's more cost effective to build only one kind of transmission, most likely, I would have bought another car. That's why I am for more choices, be it transmission types or engine choices
Yes, you have the option of two different transmissions in your Camaro. The manual transmission is the standard. The automatic transmission can be purchased at an additional cost. If an automatic transmission did not exist, I submit that, most likely, your car would have been less expensive. More choices require more logistical decisions. Those decisions almost always come with additional costs. Since I do not work for GM and do not make their logistical decisions, I cannot tell you whether or not GM entirely recovers all costs for an automatic Camaro in the automatic transmission option. I would guess that the costs are borne through the entire Camaro lineup. If someone would like to prove otherwise for me, then I would be happy to see this information. However, I would be willing to guess that those documents are not widely available to the public.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:48 AM   #133
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No one seems to be willing to answer the simple question "If no additional choices effect the
Essence or prestige of the Camaro, does the same apply to the Corvette?" Why not a 4 cylinder econo Vette? That won't hurt it's image will it?
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:53 PM   #134
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If the weight also comes down a step, actual acceleration performance might not be enough different to notice without a stopwatch. Other measures (not just fuel usage) could actually improve.
If the weight comes down, the fuel economy & performance improves for all engine types. That's not an argument for the 4 cylinder, it's a moot point because it applies to everything.

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Never mind that people buying in at the lower power levels tend not to be all that interested in brutal acceleration anyway. The current V6 is more than many will ever use as it is. These people are the "some's good" in "some's good, more's better, and too much is just enough", and there really are a lot of them. Just not people like either you or me.
So what? There's plenty of sporty economical cars around, GM should sell them one of those.

The Camaro has a market that it earned, and it wasn't for fuel efficiency. Trying to "convince" their customers that GM knows what they "really" want is going to lose them their customer base.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:13 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
No one seems to be willing to answer the simple question "If no additional choices effect the
Essence or prestige of the Camaro, does the same apply to the Corvette?" Why not a 4 cylinder econo Vette? That won't hurt it's image will it?
I'll take a shot lol.

Vette is a $50K starting performance car....period. It definitely stands to have its image tarnished much more than a Camaro would, with a turbo 4 cylinder engine going into it.

Camaro starts in the low to mid 20s, which is a very resonable number for someone that may want a sporty looking car, something fun to cruise around or be seen in, but can't afford a top end model, like the Vette.

But that has always been the case for Camaro and Mustang....you either get great looks at an affordable price, or great looks and performance for a little more.

Vette on the other hand, has stood as a performance car for a very long time. With the Corvette, you get looks and great peformance at the starting price, and if you pay more, you get even better looks and AMAZING performance. Vette is not meant to be something every average Joe can afford to buy.

Because of this, I don't think comparing the Camaro and the Corvette is fair.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:22 PM   #136
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Sort of agree about the 'Vette not being the "same" as the Camaro...on the other hand, the Camaro need not become an "economy" option more that it already is...as you say 20K for entry now, means we need another less expensive entry model?...

I think Camaro's "image" should at least have some respect over multiple other economy models that are already available...
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:30 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
If the weight comes down, the fuel economy & performance improves for all engine types. That's not an argument for the 4 cylinder, it's a moot point because it applies to everything.



So what? There's plenty of sporty economical cars around, GM should sell them one of those.

The Camaro has a market that it earned, and it wasn't for fuel efficiency. Trying to "convince" their customers that GM knows what they "really" want is going to lose them their customer base.
Here is the puzzle. If gas prices hit $5, $6 per gallon people will go more and more to those economical cars and abandon Camaro as a potenial choice. I have strong recollections what happened to the Camaro back in 2000 or so when the total Camaro/Firebird sales dropped to very low levels. Took us years (Fbodfather cough, cough) of effort to get one back.

Volume drives the business case plain and simple. So without a viable entry level Camaro, the SS/ZL1 can't exist unless you get it up to Corvette $$. And I'm not sensing a strong desire on this website to have a Camaro starting at $50,000.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:33 PM   #138
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Because GM has one of the best turbo 4s in the industry.
Really , which one ?
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:33 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
Sort of agree about the 'Vette not being the "same" as the Camaro...on the other hand, the Camaro need not become an "economy" option more that it already is...as you say 20K for entry now, means we need another less expensive entry model?...

I think Camaro's "image" should at least have some respect over multiple other economy models that are already available...
Why do you think a turbo i4 will cost less than the current v6 cylinder entry level car? I would guess a price creep. The turbo i4 will probably cost as much as the current v6. Then, the others will only increase from there.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:07 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
Sort of agree about the 'Vette not being the "same" as the Camaro...on the other hand, the Camaro need not become an "economy" option more that it already is...as you say 20K for entry now, means we need another less expensive entry model?...

I think Camaro's "image" should at least have some respect over multiple other economy models that are already available...
I think it will keep the respect (as far as performance), b/c I fully expect the T4 in the lighter platform to perform close to, or as well as the current V6. Maybe better if they decide to really put a powerful T4 in there with over 300hp/tq.

But I still hope to see a V6 option as well. More the merrier.
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