[Corner carver]

Originally Posted by Evil-Bee-NH

Well atleast two of us are documenting our builds to help others.

Kinda disappointing there isn't a few more LTG builds right now, hopefully we can inspire some others to follow suit... At least make as good a showing as what the V6 guys have started!

I fully plan on going into as much detail here about the build as possible. I've been talking about this build thread since I showed up around here a year ago and your 'turbo build link thread' was the push I needed to at least get the thread started.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Corner carver

Post#1 Finished up (whew!) check it out
Post#2 I promise it will start with some eye candy!

-->550-600whp on race gas/ high boost and methanol... For various organized 'competitions'. 450-475whp pump gas/low boost<--

Oh, going to 600 wheel HP ups the ante quite a bit, as that's more like 700 crank HP.

Let's talk big picture:
*Going with high HP pistons and rods?
*Do you happen to know what the stock injectors are in terms of flow capacity?
*will the transmission and rear end handle the torque?
*HP Tuners? Do you have a good and patient tuner to help you achieve your goals?
*To get high power, that usually means higher RPM. Is the valvetrain cut out for upwards of 8k RPM? Or are you trying to go for near-stock rev limit and massive Massive BMEP?
*ported cylinder head et al to support the much higher airflow?

Ok, so to tangent on BMEP and looking at what other current turbo 2.0L are doing out there on 93 octane, it seems that among the highest on 93 octane is roughly APR's Stage 3+ with 414 LbFt advertised crank. That's a 511 PSI BMEP. Curiously, their Stage 2 isn't far off that, as the engine is knock limited at mid RPM's so the torque can only go so high, even with stronger pistons. The 93 octane is the limit at that point. APR is doing this with an EFR7163, same turbo you mentioned. They're however just under 500 HP on 93 octane, as the EA888 gen3 just doesn't rev very high.

So even if you can match that 414 LbFt, the only way to get 600 crank HP is to rev it to 7612 RPM. To get 700 crank HP you'll need nearly 8900 RPM, which seems outside plausibility.


Now, I'm just going to guess here on injectors and assume they're similar/same to the LT1's direct injector capacity. My demo of HP Tuners says they're 15.26 g/s, or 1272 cc/min. That's good for roughly 690 HP assuming a normal BSFC. Let me know if you can find out your injector size for sure.


There's plenty more to work out, but this is a good start.

[Corner carver]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

-->550-600whp on race gas/ high boost and methanol... For various organized 'competitions'. 450-475whp pump gas/low boost<--

Oh, going to 600 wheel HP ups the ante quite a bit, as that's more like 700 crank HP.

Let's talk big picture:
*Going with high HP pistons and rods?
*Do you happen to know what the stock injectors are in terms of flow capacity?
*will the transmission and rear end handle the torque?
*HP Tuners? Do you have a good and patient tuner to help you achieve your goals?
*To get high power, that usually means higher RPM. Is the valvetrain cut out for upwards of 8k RPM? Or are you trying to go for near-stock rev limit and massive Massive BMEP?
*ported cylinder head et al to support the much higher airflow?

Ok, so to tangent on BMEP and looking at what other current turbo 2.0L are doing out there on 93 octane, it seems that among the highest on 93 octane is roughly APR's Stage 3+ with 414 LbFt advertised crank. That's a 511 PSI BMEP. Curiously, their Stage 2 isn't far off that, as the engine is knock limited at mid RPM's so the torque can only go so high, even with stronger pistons. The 93 octane is the limit at that point. APR is doing this with an EFR7163, same turbo you mentioned. They're however just under 500 HP on 93 octane, as the EA888 gen3 just doesn't rev very high.

So even if you can match that 414 LbFt, the only way to get 600 crank HP is to rev it to 7612 RPM. To get 700 crank HP you'll need nearly 8900 RPM, which seems outside plausibility.


Now, I'm just going to guess here on injectors and assume they're similar/same to the LT1's direct injector capacity. My demo of HP Tuners says they're 15.26 g/s, or 1272 cc/min. That's good for roughly 690 HP assuming a normal BSFC. Let me know if you can find out your injector size for sure.


There's plenty more to work out, but this is a good start.

Promise I'll get back to these questions shortly... Just working on parts of post#2 and 3 that will cover a lot of this!
Would you mind letting me know what the abbreviations: BMEP and BSFC stand for (beginner here )

Will go into more detail shortly, but realize the 7163 is slightly undersized for this output. However, this build will hopefully spin around 8000rpm and end up as a 2.3l in the end for that extra 15+%bump...if I fall short of my hp goals, but have a brutally responsive engine and flexible power band I shouldn't lose too much sleep over it

Thanks for the info and interest; I've been following your build also... That Elise is/was bada$$!

Also, currently without any kind of data acquisition or tuning suites for the car... But its something I'm working on! Been working with an aftermarket company to develop drivetrain components for this platform... This is only in the beginning stages though, stay tuned!

[Ryephile]

BMEP = Brake Mean Effective Pressure. It's an approximation of the mean cylinder pressure, which gives you an idea how strong your bits need to be. Given excellent mechanical quench, it allows you to compare engines regardless of their displacement.

BSFC = Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. This is how much fuel is needed for a give power output. Yes Lambda plays a big part, but it helps you size fuel injectors for a given Lambda. It's really difficult for mere enthusiasts like us to get exact values here, it ends up being an estimation.

8k RPM and a displacement bump will certainly help get that power, but keep in mind you'll definitely have to rework the intake and head to match the necessary higher flow and harmonic tuning to work at higher RPMs.

I highly recommend buttering up an experienced ECU tuner that already does LTG tuning. With the displacement bump, head work, and high RPM goals, you'll need a thorough ground-up recalibration.


All the best!

[Corner carver]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

BMEP = Brake Mean Effective Pressure. It's an approximation of the mean cylinder pressure, which gives you an idea how strong your bits need to be. Given excellent mechanical quench, it allows you to compare engines regardless of their displacement.

BSFC = Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. This is how much fuel is needed for a give power output. Yes Lambda plays a big part, but it helps you size fuel injectors for a given Lambda. It's really difficult for mere enthusiasts like us to get exact values here, it ends up being an estimation.

8k RPM and a displacement bump will certainly help get that power, but keep in mind you'll definitely have to rework the intake and head to match the necessary higher flow and harmonic tuning to work at higher RPMs.

I highly recommend buttering up an experienced ECU tuner that already does LTG tuning. With the displacement bump, head work, and high RPM goals, you'll need a thorough ground-up recalibration.


All the best!

Haha! Man! I feel like you and I have already been talking about this before the thread went up! lol...I've already been in contact with a tuner on this forum, nothing in depth... Just feeling them out (RDP)

Also talked (briefly) with a fabricator for a large volume/ short runner intake (with additional injector bosses).

You're gonna have this thread written up for me soon!

Thanks for the clarification on those abbreviations, hadn't seen them before (abbreviated) and it threw me off

[Jason@JacFab]

Cool plans, I'll be watching this one for sure.

Just an FYI since it was asked, the stock injector flow rate is 128.7 lb/hr... The injectors themselves should be good to around 700hp or more, depending on duty cycle... I think the HPFP will be the limiting factor in the fuel department.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Jason@JacFab

Cool plans, I'll be watching this one for sure.

Just an FYI since it was asked, the stock injector flow rate is 128.7 lb/hr... The injectors themselves should be good to around 700hp or more, depending on duty cycle... I think the HPFP will be the limiting factor in the fuel department.

Thanks for that! 128.7 Lb/Hr = 16.2 g/s = 1350 cc/min, just for me to remember.

[Corner carver]

Sorry guys.. Updates coming soon; just trying to nail down some details for my next post!

[aa406079]

3410lb is stock weight for your 2.0T car with full fluids and no driver...

You want 3250 lbs with driver.... let's assume you are 200 lbs...

That makes 3050 lbs with full fluids and no driver... you are attempting to remove 310 lbs from a daily driver....

Are you prepared to strip this car interior down to metal?

Are you prepared to remove all the airbags?

So far I've been able to calculate 140 lbs of weight saving thru removing the back seats entirely... replacing both front seats with Kevlar racing seats... and using 19" wheels that weigh 21-22 lbs each....

The hood is aluminum... you won't find any real weight savings going carbon fibre there... there are CF trunk lid replacements... but I don't know if that lid is aluminum....

All that's left for me in terms of more weight reduction would be carbon fibre or aluminum drive shaft... then a lighter clutch.... that may come with my power mods in 12-18 months...we're talking maybe 10 lbs less each.... granted they're rotating mass so the felt inertia will have a much greater effect ( as with the rolling stock) ... but.... it would be hard to find much more to take out without the car having a bare from interior...




I would say 160 lbs of weight loss on these alpha platform cars is about as ambitious as it gets while still being street legal to insurable and economically viable...

The Black Dog racing team is running a an N/A LT1 GT4 that weighs about how much you have your car to weigh...completely stripped out interior with Lexan/ polycarbonate windows all round... most likely straight pipe exhaust...sequential transmission...and there is no way any insurance company would categorize that car as street legal.

That being said... if you shoot for the stars... ending up at the moon is still pretty damn good...

[Corner carver]

Originally Posted by aa406079

3410lb is stock weight for your 2.0T car with full fluids and no driver...

You want 3250 lbs with driver.... let's assume you are 200 lbs...

That makes 3050 lbs with full fluids and no driver... you are attempting to remove 310 lbs from a daily driver....

Are you prepared to strip this car interior down to metal?

Are you prepared to remove all the airbags?

So far I've been able to calculate 140 lbs of weight saving thru removing the back seats entirely... replacing both front seats with Kevlar racing seats... and using 19" wheels that weigh 21-22 lbs each....

The hood is aluminum... you won't find any real weight savings going carbon fibre there... there are CF trunk lid replacements... but I don't know if that lid is aluminum....

All that's left for me in terms of more weight reduction would be carbon fibre or aluminum drive shaft... then a lighter clutch.... that may come with my power mods in 12-18 months...we're talking maybe 10 lbs less each.... granted they're rotating mass so the felt inertia will have a much greater effect ( as with the rolling stock) ... but.... it would be hard to find much more to take out without the car having a bare from interior...




I would say 160 lbs of weight loss on these alpha platform cars is about as ambitious as it gets while still being street legal to insurable and economically viable...

The Black Dog racing team is running a an N/A LT1 GT4 that weighs about how much you have your car to weigh...completely stripped out interior with Lexan/ polycarbonate windows all round... most likely straight pipe exhaust...sequential transmission...and there is no way any insurance company would categorize that car as street legal.

That being said... if you shoot for the stars... ending up at the moon is still pretty damn good...

I believe GM was hedging their bets with those published weights: http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showth...=477232&page=3

This car was a bone stock 1LT M6, no options and tipped the scales at 3237lbs.

My car is also a 1LT M6... The difference being I have the RS package (20"×8.5" split 5 spokes/ runflat tires), the HD brake and cooling kit (4 piston front calipers, tranny cooler, 2 auxiliary rads), Bose sound system with 8"screen...

I will know better soon, but I expect to land right around 3300lbs myself. The 3410lbs I assume would be for a 2LT A8, RS, sunroof and loaded.

Just finished the rough draft of my parts list and will be updating shortly, just gotta find some pics to keep the peeps happy ... Spolier: full street car under 3000lbs inbound

[Michigan1LTRS]

The "BeastMonster"

[Corner carver]

Originally Posted by Michigan1LTRS

The "BeastMonster"

Wait till you see the build list

There's gonna be some cool custom going on's here and there

...it will earn both the 'dancing' and the 'dragon'

[Michigan1LTRS]

[Corner carver]

Sorry guys, updates are coming... Been insane at work and home recently (doesn't help I'm only home 3 days a week)...

Something to wet the appetite... My 305/30/19 Continental tires just got delievered; will get pics and show what wheel I'll be running this weekend. Thanks for the patients peeps!