[17SSfifty]

Muscle cars are mostly mid to full sized cars. Pony cars are compact cars. The Mustang is a pony car born from the Ford Falcon. The camaro was created to compete with the Mustang and is technically classified as a pony car.


I think where we are heading toward more HP and performance based cars in the future of the camaro and mustang.

[Lafourche1]

I personally think we are all lucky to be able to see Car Life, living again. The times are surely better now than at any other time in my life. I started driving at the very end of the muscle car era (1970) and lived through the horror show that was the '70s and 80s (Corvette's with a 305 mill, making 165HP). Here I want to stop and tip my hat to Ford. The Fox Body Mustang and the 5.0, 225HP engine breathed life into a dying culture. Suddenly, a modest investment could get you tire smoking acceleration and a smile from ear to ear! GM started to wake up with the LT1 in the Corvette and in the 4th Gen F-Body. 275HP and 325 pound feet were now waiting to leave a smoking trail behind the Firebird or Camaro. Dodge hissed to life and Shelby found a new home. At this same time, Ford stumbled with the 4.6ltr modular engine. Standing even taller came the revolution of the LS1. Then, so suddenly, GM left us all standing grave side as the F-Body died an inglorious death. With the modular motor still fresh in our memories and many of us standing jilted at the grave, we found German and Japanese offerings much to our liking. The 3 Series or 350Z were new found friends. Some of us dallied with the beautiful lines of the XK8.

Something stirred, perhaps it was the ghost of Steve McQueen in the new Bullitt or some hidden ember caught fire and a new Super Sport rumbled to life with a newer generation LS3. Dodge threw down a steel gauntlet holding 700HP, barely in check.

Simply stated, these are the very best of times for American HP. Whether it is the Hellcat, Coyote, FPC Voodoo, LT1 or LT4, American Iron is all present and accounted for. The Corvette, SS, Mustang, GT350 or Hellcat are all readily available and as cheap, in today's dollars, as at any other time that I can recall.

I think that Carroll Shelby, Dan Gurney, Phil Hill and all of other legends of American motorsports are indeed will pleased.

[thickstunalex]

Originally Posted by Megahurtz

Not sure why everyone is so worried. Cars today are way faster than anything of the past with far better fuel economy. Electric motors will be the next phase and the cars will be even faster. If you follow how things are rolled out you will notice that a majority of items that are available in today's cars were almost all developed and tested and sold on high end super cars. Then as things became cheaper they trickled down to regular cars.

Example, look at Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Tesla....... All using hybrid setup except for Tesla using all electric and those cars are faster than 99% of everything on the street.

The only thing I will miss is the v8 rumble.

This. Understand that CAFE standards are an AVERAGE standard for car manufacturers. Camaros and Corvettes sell in much lower numbers than Malibus, Cruzes, etc. Not to mention sales of the new Chevy Volt and Bolt will throw some 99+mpg vehicles into that average.

I remember in 2004 being really worried that new CAFE standards would destroy sporty cars and we'd all be driving around in 4 cylinder tea-sippers. Travel 12 years later and sports cars today are faster than anything we could've imagined, AND the fuel economy is better. Thankfully we've got some pretty sound engineers that are not only keeping up with the CAFE standards, but are cranking out better performance at the same time.

I rode in a Tesla P85D, and that thing is ballistic! I had no idea. I think having a performance electric Camaro, or an electric/V8 hybrid Camaro would be a track-monster. Ideally, I'd be happy cruising around on electric, then opening it up with a V8 engine with electric assist. That would scream. And I'm sure Chevy would be happy to keep selling premium Corvettes and Camaros in the future as long as we're willing to buy them.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by Number 3

CAFE is coming. It cannot be avoided. Camaro needs to be a nearly 40 mpg car by 2025.

CAFE standards require an average MPG for the fleet, not a specific car, AFAIK. I think Camaro can skirt by with a few MPG gains while the rest of their fleet either becomes either hybrid or fully electric. I don't see them killing off or neutering the V8.

I have a feeling that starting with the gen 7 Camaro, we will see at least one trim come with a hybridized engine. They will find a way to preserve the exhaust note, but not all the power going to the wheels will be directly from the gasoline engine.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

I personally think we are all lucky to be able to see Car Life, living again. The times are surely better now than at any other time in my life. I started driving at the very end of the muscle car era (1970) and lived through the horror show that was the '70s and 80s (Corvette's with a 305 mill, making 165HP). Here I want to stop and tip my hat to Ford. The Fox Body Mustang and the 5.0, 225HP engine breathed life into a dying culture. Suddenly, a modest investment could get you tire smoking acceleration and a smile from ear to ear! GM started to wake up with the LT1 in the Corvette and in the 4th Gen F-Body. 275HP and 325 pound feet were now waiting to leave a smoking trail behind the Firebird or Camaro. Dodge hissed to life and Shelby found a new home. At this same time, Ford stumbled with the 4.6ltr modular engine. Standing even taller came the revolution of the LS1. Then, so suddenly, GM left us all standing grave side as the F-Body died an inglorious death. With the modular motor still fresh in our memories and many of us standing jilted at the grave, we found German and Japanese offerings much to our liking. The 3 Series or 350Z were new found friends. Some of us dallied with the beautiful lines of the XK8.

Something stirred, perhaps it was the ghost of Steve McQueen in the new Bullitt or some hidden ember caught fire and a new Super Sport rumbled to life with a newer generation LS3. Dodge threw down a steel gauntlet holding 700HP, barely in check.

Simply stated, these are the very best of times for American HP. Whether it is the Hellcat, Coyote, FPC Voodoo, LT1 or LT4, American Iron is all present and accounted for. The Corvette, SS, Mustang, GT350 or Hellcat are all readily available and as cheap, in today's dollars, as at any other time that I can recall.

I think that Carroll Shelby, Dan Gurney, Phil Hill and all of other legends of American motorsports are indeed will pleased.

The 4.6 DOHC Cobras were good, competitive, performers. And the Terminator opened up a new type of super pony car. It wasn't all bad with the modulars and at the end of the F-Body's life.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

CAFE standards require an average MPG for the fleet, not a specific car, AFAIK. I think Camaro can skirt by with a few MPG gains while the rest of their fleet either becomes either hybrid or fully electric. I don't see them killing off or neutering the V8.

I have a feeling that starting with the gen 7 Camaro, we will see at least one trim come with a hybridized engine. They will find a way to preserve the exhaust note, but not all the power going to the wheels will be directly from the gasoline engine.

I believe the new standards are on a per car basis. The fuel economy requirement is calculated on a WB x Track calculation or "footprint".

You are thinking of the OLD CAFE. I'm afraid of the 2025 CAFE which is not the same.

Be afraid.........be very afraid.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/climate/do.../420f12051.pdf

If you look at what the Camaro (and Corvette) have to deliver, it will require some type of hybrid.

Now that may allow a V8 with great performance. But be prepared to pay for it. And in the end if no one is willing to pay that much the car will die in it's current incarnation.

There WILL be V8s in the 2025 universe. Trucks will need them to do work. So it's just a matter of how it averages out and how much the penalty is to keep the volumes down to make the average.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I believe the new standards are on a per car basis. The fuel economy requirement is calculated on a WB x Track calculation or "footprint".

You are thinking of the OLD CAFE. I'm afraid of the 2025 CAFE which is not the same.

Be afraid.........be very afraid.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/climate/do.../420f12051.pdf

From the document (not sure if I am misinterpreting the part in bold):

Manufacturers are not compelled to build vehicles of any particular size or type (nor does the rule create an incentive to do so), and no single vehicle is required to meet its individual target. Each manufacturer will have its own eet-wide standard that re ects the vehicles it chooses to produce, and the GHG program provides a wide range of credit programs and exibilities for manufacturers to meet the standards.

It sounds like this is fleet-wide. I also assume that if CAFE stands for "Corporate Average Fuel Economy" that the key word here is "average."

Either way, this doc seems to be from 2011, and we aren't even hitting the requirements they projected for 2016, which estimates all combined cars and trucks are at a 35.5 MPG average. In reality, the only vehicles with a conventional gasoline engine that get that are small economy cars, and we sure as hell aren't selling enough hybrids or fully electric vehicles to hit that target.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

From the document (not sure if I am misinterpreting the part in bold):



It sounds like this is fleet-wide. I also assume that if CAFE stands for "Corporate Average Fuel Economy" that the key word here is "average."

Either way, this doc seems to be from 2011, and we aren't even hitting the requirements they projected for 2016, which estimates all combined cars and trucks are at a 35.5 MPG average. In reality, the only vehicles with a conventional gasoline engine that get that are small economy cars, and we sure as hell aren't selling enough hybrids or fully electric vehicles to hit that target.

But note that in order to meet the CAFE target, you pretty much need to meet your footprint target if you are full range manufacturer.

So will GM ignore the footprint target for Camaro and Corvette? Only if they can exceed the whopping FE target on other vehicles. And that's the issue. This is why Fiat is actually considering giving up the Dart and 200 models. They don't sell and they don't need them to meet the future CAFE standards which are based on type of vehicle and footprint which drives a unique CAFE target for each manufacturer based on what they choose to sell. So the footprint target matters if you choose to sell that vehicle because selling that vehicle counts in the OEMs specific CAFE requirement.

Not buying or selling, just pointing out as FE and emissions requirements go up the cost of a performance car will also. Adding hybrid propulsion to a Camaro will not be cheap and it will not be light and it will more than likely be necessary. Or can you imagine the 2.0T Camaro being replaced by the 1.5T from the Malibu? With a hybrid. Then how many of those will people buy to offset the V8s we covet?

[MrChrisLS3]

Well, we all thought that the party was over with the inception of the EPA back in 74, and for a little while, it was. However, in time, we learned how to make more efficient, cleaner power. Really, I wonder what the reaction would've been if you could go back tell those guys in the 60's, that one day there would be a Corvette that would put out 650HP, could be driven every day and get 25 mpg, and if that's not enough, you could actually stand behind it and not get carbon monoxide poisoning.

The internal combustion engine is still the most efficient method of propulsion. For how long? It's hard to tell, but it seems that electric motors still have a way to go. Then figure in all those batteries, what happens to those when they are dead. Lithium battery waste is going to create a whole new set of problems. So, the question is, how far can we stretch out the supply of fossil fuels until the answer is achieved?

I think that within ten years, forced induction will be pretty much the standard on all engines, heck, it's almost the case now. Hybrid technology will continue to increase, as will development of total electric cars. In twenty years, we may see the development of other alternative fuels, i.e. Hydrogen. Of course, this will be tempered with the development of the necessary infrastructure to support it.

But what about our beloved muscle/sports cars? That's a good question. The hobby is not going to go away, at least not without a fight. Some may be fine with going fast in silence, but for some of us, it's not just about speed. I like my v8 for the noise of it, the feel of it, the smell of it. Take the visceral experience of the car away, it becomes pretty much pointless to me. The real hope here is that one of these energy companies (a.k.a. oil companies is sitting on a formula for a non fossil based fuel with the properties of gasoline, not the corn stuff, but real gasoline.

Oh well, I guess we just have to enjoy it while we got it.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by Number 3

But note that in order to meet the CAFE target, you pretty much need to meet your footprint target if you are full range manufacturer.

So will GM ignore the footprint target for Camaro and Corvette? Only if they can exceed the whopping FE target on other vehicles.

They can't even reach the target set by CAFE now at present. They will not meet the 2025 CAFE requirement either. I doubt anybody will. If anything, they will end up revising the legislation, finding a loophole, or stalling. In the midst of that, I'm sure fuel economy will still inevitably go up, but more as a very loose guideline.

I can't remember the last time the government set an industry-wide target for some future benchmark and it was actually met on time. Heck, a large portion of the U.S. doesn't even have broadband internet in friggen 2016 despite promises from companies like AT&T that were only allowed to have mergers on the condition that they improve their infrastructure. But I digress.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by MiamiBlueCamaro

Bye bye muscle. Hello Apple car.......

Rumors are that Apple has abandoned it, and thank goodness.

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

CAFE standards require an average MPG for the fleet, not a specific car, AFAIK. I think Camaro can skirt by with a few MPG gains while the rest of their fleet either becomes either hybrid or fully electric. I don't see them killing off or neutering the V8.

I have a feeling that starting with the gen 7 Camaro, we will see at least one trim come with a hybridized engine. They will find a way to preserve the exhaust note, but not all the power going to the wheels will be directly from the gasoline engine.

Hell, early on in development, the 6th gen had an eAssist model under consideration.

[cellsafemode]

Screw hybrid. I want a full electric camaro with an open platform allowing easy aftermarket motor and controller swaps.

[adrian1996]

When do you guys think the next generation of Camaro (gen 7) will be announced ?

[thickstunalex]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Screw hybrid. I want a full electric camaro with an open platform allowing easy aftermarket motor and controller swaps.

http://youtu.be/CCbEAttZTtA

Edit...if anyone knows how to embed the video for this forum please let me know. I read it was supposed to do so automatically.